Dick Nites Water Reducable Top Coat Durability

[RiverMan]

Guys,

I build and sell musky and pike lures. If I could use a water based clear like Seal Coat or DN water based clear I most certainly would. I would love to use a water base clear and get away from using a respirator and a lure dryer but the fact is they don't work! I have tried water-based clear coats and if the lure gets too wet everything comes unraveled and the lure is destroyed. It takes a long time to cut a lure, sand it, shape it, weight it, seal it, prime it, and paint it and after all this work I want to be sure that my investment is protected with a proven product.

The first time I tried Seal Coat I really liked it, went on milky white, dried clear, odor wasn't bad. I applied three or four coats by dipping the lure, everything was great. I then took the lure to the river and sat on anchor with the lure fishing (for salmon) an hour underwater at a time. At the end of the day I set the rod down in the front of the boat and the deck was really wet from rain. It sat on the wet deck another couple hours. Got back to the launch at the end of the day, picked up the rod and guess what, part of the paint was sitting on the deck of my boat! After being underwater just one day the clearcoat failed. My guess is the lure was probably underwater a total of about 8-10 hours. I have epoxy coated lures I have fished in this same way for 5 years and dozens of trips that are totally fine.

For now, proven clearcoats include Devcon Epoxy, Etex Epoxy, and DN original formula. I am hoping that some time soon we will also discover a UV cure epoxy.

RM

Edited March 13, 2011 by RiverMan

[Lure--Prof]

Guys,

I build and sell musky and pike lures. If I could use a water based clear like Seal Coat or DN water based clear I most certainly would. I would love to use a water base clear and get away from using a respirator and a lure dryer but the fact is they don't work! I have tried water-based clear coats and if the lure gets too wet everything comes unraveled and the lure is destroyed. It takes a long time to cut a lure, sand it, shape it, weight it, seal it, prime it, and paint it and after all this work I want to be sure that my investment is protected with a proven product.

The first time I tried Seal Coat I really liked it, went on milky white, dried clear, odor wasn't bad. I applied three or four coats by dipping the lure, everything was great. I then took the lure to the river and sat on anchor with the lure fishing (for salmon) an hour underwater at a time. At the end of the day I set the rod down in the front of the boat and the deck was really wet from rain. It sat on the wet deck another couple hours. Got back to the launch at the end of the day, picked up the rod and guess what, part of the paint was sitting on the deck of my boat! After being underwater just one day the clearcoat failed. My guess is the lure was probably underwater a total of about 8-10 hours. I have epoxy coated lures I have fished in this same way for 5 years and dozens of trips that are totally fine.

For now, proven clearcoats include Devcon Epoxy, Etex Epoxy, and DN original formula. I am hoping that some time soon we will also discover a UV cure epoxy.

RM

Jed, it is not really fair to pass judgement on Dicknite's S8-2 water reducible by a bad experience with CS Coatings water base Clearcoat. They are really two completely different animals. The S8-2 is a vastly superior coating to anything I've ever used with "water" in its description.

There are a lot of other epoxies that I consider better than Devcon now too, especially considering how darn fast D2-T cures these days. BSI Finish Cure has it all over D2-T, with its much longer pot life, easier bubble-free application and clear hard shine. (It is labled as "20 min. Finish-Cure", and I don't know where the 20 minute thing comes from, as this stuff cures much slower than their "30 min SLOW-CURE). BSI is private labled by many different companies such as HobbyTown, where I buy mine.

WASCO offers good epoxy, as does WOODCRAFT, and WEST SYSTEMS...and there are others that have their champions too, that are proved beyond a shadow of a doubt to those who use them.

But, comparing DN S8-2 to CS Lure Coat is comparing a ripe Florida Orange to a rotten apple as far as I'm concerned.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Lure--Prof

[RiverMan]

Lure-prof,

With all due respect to your opinion, we have had discussions here on TU about clearcoats for years and everyone has their own opinion. Back in the day it was Etex vs Devcon and each had their own favorite. BTW, I agree with you on the Devcon, the 30 minute stuff cures way too fast now.

The test Bob did pretty much told me everything I needed to know about the DN water clear. These findings are very consistent with what I have found testing two other water based clears. I pasted his findings below.

bobv, on 28 November 2010 - 06:15 PM, said:

However after 24 hrs under water the entire bait was covered with pimples and the clear and white could be scraped off with your fingernail. Assuming it was ruined I set aside and watched football all day and that evening went in to see about stripping the lure. I was amazed to find all the pimples gone and the finish had rehardened to a point I couldn't scrap it up even where I had cut the finish. It also appears to have bonded with the paint better. Not sure what to think at this point. Any ideas out there.

Again, you can coat a lure with Devcon or etex, Wasco (I like it too) and sink it for weeks with no ill effects. Your typical rapala, lucky craft, or storm lure can be left in the water for a month and it would still be fine and I expect the same from my lures. The DN water clear couldn't hold up to a 24 hour test. Maybe some here are satisified with a clear coat that fails after a 24 hour soak..............I am definitely not one of them.

Jed

Edited March 15, 2011 by RiverMan

[mark poulson]

Rich,

If you want a bullet proof water cured urethane, try Target Coatings exterior urethane, EM9300. For a $30+- investment, you aren't out that much, and, if it works out, whoopee!!!

[Lure--Prof]

Riverman,

I know I'm beating this poor dead horse. I see Bob V's results as being much better than your disaster with C.S. coating where you had your paint peeling on the boat seat on a rainy day for about a 10 hour exposure resulting in total failure, and he had his bait submerged for 24 hours without failure. That is a huge difference!. And I don't know the specifics of his procedures either. After his lure dried though, the coating seemed to have bonded with the bait's paint even better!

Considering this, I just don't think that it's fair to throw the S8-2 under the same bus as the C.S. coating. I know you are using a Pass or Fail grading system here, but in fact did his lure actually fail? It didn't...Was it near failure? We really don't know, he assumed that it had probably already failed, and then learned it had not.

I do know this. I've had the S8-2 survive an impact with a concrete bridge support without a blemish, except for a broken Owner Stinger treble, and a nearly flattened belly hook hanger. I 'm quite certain some epoxies would not have survived that same encounter without toital coating faiure. The only time I've ever had lures submerged for over 24 hours was during a flooded basement ordeal, and this is during a lifetime of working, and living on or near the water, tournament fishing, and bass, walleye, and striper guiding. I've damaged a lot of lures over the years in a lot of ways, but almost all were from banging them against very unforgiving objects. Lure's soaked for over 24 hours? I'd worry more about them being damaged by lightning, seriously.

I just don't see the validity in considering what happens to baits in circumstances that have never occurred in a lifetime of fishing, save for one hidden tacklebox in a flood...i.e., a freak of nature, or an "act of God".

Sincerely,

fellow TU oldtimer

[RiverMan]

Lure-prof,

What more could have happened? The clear was pimpled and was coming off, that's failure. Are we going to check the lure every few casts and once we see it failing set it aside until next week?

Pick any top line bass or musky lure, they can all withstand a 24 hour soak with no ill effects. I have found luhr Jensen Kwikfish that had been in the water for months, covered in algae, wash them up and they look good as new.

You and I have both been building lures a long time but some others on here may be just getting started. I see no reason to suggest to a novice builder that he use a clear coat that I know is significantly inferior to many others.

Jed

Edited March 16, 2011 by RiverMan

[Lure--Prof]

Riverman,

I will reiterate that in a lifetime spent fishing, including several years fishing 200+ days a year, I've never had occasion to immerse lures for 24 hours straight. If the only circumstance that I need to avoid has never happened to me in my angling life, and the lure coat is dead-simple to use and store, with near bulletproof protection of the bait except for being run over by the afore-mentioned runaway bus, it all adds up to a lure coating that Tim Hughes, the most renowned lure-painter in the bass-fishing world, tested and found to be superlative.

I have 2 lures in a box of a dozen of some of my own most-used baits which are coated with S8-2, the rest are coated with original DN. You could examine each lure, or fish with all of them, and at the end of the day, there is no way to distinguish which 2 baits are coated with the S8-2 .

This is why I'm defending this lure coating. How often have any of your own baits been soaked for over 24 hours? It has never happened to me whether guiding or tounament fishing. I'm 58.

BTW, I don't recall in this discussion that you ever said you'd used this product, DN S8-2 water reducible, yourself...

[RiverMan]

Lure-prof,

I have no alliance to any manufacturer of clear coats including DN, just sharing my personal experience with others here on TU. Over the years I have tried Devcon, Envirotex in several formulas, DN original, Seal Coat, Lure dip, Lacquers, Fasco, UV cures, several auto clears, and most recently an environmentally safe epoxy. I am always looking for a better clear coat and in the process have learned a thing or two about them.

Since you mentioned Tim Hughes, I will relate that I have sold about 3000 musky lures over the last six years and during that time I can think of only two that have come back to me with a clear coat failure. All of them were coated with either Devcon or etex. Given these lures are being used for one of the largest, toothiest, and toughest critters in fresh water I think these results speak for themselves. Had I been using a water-based clear, I would have been replacing 90% of them.

I have not tried the DN water clear because I know from Bob's experiment that there is no way it will live up to what I and my customers expect in regard to durability. I have tried the original DN and I like it although it too has some shortcomings, odor being one of them, and problems with storage being another. I have tried two other water clears and both failed miserably. Even if the DN water clear was twice as good as the other water clears I have tested it wouldn't cut the mustard with my customers, I can guarantee you that.

I would agree that most guys are not going to soak a lure for 24 hours straight. However, if the lure fails on a 24 soak that tells me it is not as durable as other commonly available clear coats (etex, devcon, etc.) that can easily tolerate a week or a month of soaking………..so why use it? I don’t intend to use my fishing reel for 24 hours straight but I expect it to hold up if I decide to do so.

At this point we will have to agree to disagree and I will let others here decide if they consider a clear coat that pimples and scrapes off after 24 hours to be an acceptable clear coat for them.

I enjoyed the lively debate with you, maybe something was learned in the process.

Kind regards,

Jed

Edited March 16, 2011 by RiverMan

[Lure--Prof]

Lure-prof,

I have no alliance to any manufacturer of clear coats including DN, just sharing my personal experience with others here on TU. Over the years I have tried Devcon, Envirotex in several formulas, DN original, Seal Coat, Lure dip, Lacquers, Fasco, UV cures, several auto clears, and most recently an environmentally safe epoxy. I am always looking for a better clear coat and in the process have learned a thing or two about them.

Since you mentioned Tim Hughes, I will relate that I have sold about 3000 musky lures over the last six years and during that time I can think of only two that have come back to me with a clear coat failure. All of them were coated with either Devcon or etex. Given these lures are being used for one of the largest, toothiest, and toughest critters in fresh water I think these results speak for themselves. Had I been using a water-based clear, I would have been replacing 90% of them.

I have not tried the DN water clear because I know from Bob's experiment that there is no way it will live up to what I and my customers expect in regard to durability. I have tried the original DN and I like it although it too has some shortcomings, odor being one of them, and problems with storage being another. I have tried two other water clears and both failed miserably. Even if the DN water clear was twice as good as the other water clears I have tested it wouldn't cut the mustard with my customers, I can guarantee you that.

I would agree that most guys are not going to soak a lure for 24 hours straight. However, if the lure fails on a 24 soak that tells me it is not as durable as other commonly available clear coats (etex, devcon, etc.) that can easily tolerate a week or a month of soaking………..so why use it? I don’t intend to use my fishing reel for 24 hours straight but I expect it to hold up if I decide to do so.

At this point we will have to agree to disagree and I will let others here decide if they consider a clear coat that pimples and scrapes off after 24 hours to be an acceptable clear coat for them.

I enjoyed the lively debate with you, maybe something was learned in the process.

Kind regards,

Jed

Jed,

I too have enjoyed this debate. I think we have made most of the points we want to make. However, there is one line that you keep blurring here that I must take issue with. You keep throwing the DN S8-2 with the other water clears, and, had you used it, you would have seen that it is quite a different animal. I've never used a water reducible clearcoat that offers anywhere near the protection that this stuff does. It is tough! I would think it would be a great muskie lure coating, and I would bet you'd have fewer coating failures with this than with any epoxy. You know I don't talk out my butt. After this stuff cures for a week it is really transformed. It is much more difficult to sand or scratch than epoxy, and much more resistant to cracking than the hard epoxies. Comparing S8-2 to a product like C.S. acrylic lure coat, would be like comparing Minwax Polycrylic to an automotive clear. And that is my main point here

Nor am I allied with any clearcoat maker, or distributor. My favorite product is Dicknite's S8-1 moisture cure, simply because I've seen what happens to lures several years down the line now; They remain clear &stable, and the degree of protection is simply better than any other lure coating can provide. That is the bottom line, but I enjoy brushing it on a bait also, so smooth, fast, and bubble free.

Anyway, keep turning out those pretty lures! I guess we've lost all those guys finally who would put their trust in nothing but boiled linseed oil formulas!

Keep the sawdust flying

Dean

[Hughesy]

Well I agree with both Dean and RiverMan. I agree with Riverman that epoxy coatings are probably the toughest coating out here right now and is what should be used if you are going to soak your lures for long periods of time or, if you are going after toothy critters. In the bass fishing world the epoxy coating will work just fine for most applications. However, there are certain applications where epoxy does not fill the niche. Epoxy coatings being so thick, sometimes affects the buoyancy of say a suspending stick bait or a top water lure. Also, on painted bills where there are sharp corners or edges( some wiggle warts or the mouth of a Pop R), epoxy coatings repel from those areas and very often allow water to get underneath and the epoxy begins to peel. This is where I agree with Dean. On bass fishing lures the S81 and 82 will fill the niche because they are extremely tough and they will adhere to these edges and reduce the weight of the clear coat. The 81 is the toughest urethane out there but has storage issues and will react to certain paints. But once cured is awesome. Now for the 82. This is the most user friendly stuff I have ever seen. You must use several coats, but when fully cured, it too is tough stuff. It is perfect for the beginner because you don't have to build a lure turner, no mixing, no fumes, no reaction to paints, and if you let it fully cure, you will have a coating that is very well suited for normal bass fishing lures. If you want something a little tougher go with the 81. You see it all comes down to the application of the clear coat. Epoxy coatings are great for toothy critters, lures that are going to see extended periods of time in the water, and bass crank baits where they will be put to extreme abuse bouncing off of rocks and timber. For top waters, stick baits, lures with sharp edges, you need something lighter and something that will cling to the edges. S81,82, and automotive clears fit the bill here. When we did production work where we needed something strong and fast. We used uv curing epoxy from epoxy coatings co. in California which is no longer in biz. So it all boils down to #1 what you are fishing for. #2 The kind of lure you are coating. And #3 how you are fishing the lure. I think RiverMan is using the right application for his lures and Dean is using the right one for his. Both of these guys make great lures and know what they are talking about.

[RiverMan]

Well I agree with both Dean and RiverMan. I agree with Riverman that epoxy coatings are probably the toughest coating out here right now and is what should be used if you are going to soak your lures for long periods of time or, if you are going after toothy critters. In the bass fishing world the epoxy coating will work just fine for most applications. However, there are certain applications where epoxy does not fill the niche. Epoxy coatings being so thick, sometimes affects the buoyancy of say a suspending stick bait or a top water lure. Also, on painted bills where there are sharp corners or edges( some wiggle warts or the mouth of a Pop R), epoxy coatings repel from those areas and very often allow water to get underneath and the epoxy begins to peel. This is where I agree with Dean. On bass fishing lures the S81 and 82 will fill the niche because they are extremely tough and they will adhere to these edges and reduce the weight of the clear coat. The 81 is the toughest urethane out there but has storage issues and will react to certain paints. But once cured is awesome. Now for the 82. This is the most user friendly stuff I have ever seen. You must use several coats, but when fully cured, it too is tough stuff. It is perfect for the beginner because you don't have to build a lure turner, no mixing, no fumes, no reaction to paints, and if you let it fully cure, you will have a coating that is very well suited for normal bass fishing lures. If you want something a little tougher go with the 81. You see it all comes down to the application of the clear coat. Epoxy coatings are great for toothy critters, lures that are going to see extended periods of time in the water, and bass crank baits where they will be put to extreme abuse bouncing off of rocks and timber. For top waters, stick baits, lures with sharp edges, you need something lighter and something that will cling to the edges. S81,82, and automotive clears fit the bill here. When we did production work where we needed something strong and fast. We used uv curing epoxy from epoxy coatings co. in California which is no longer in biz. So it all boils down to #1 what you are fishing for. #2 The kind of lure you are coating. And #3 how you are fishing the lure. I think RiverMan is using the right application for his lures and Dean is using the right one for his. Both of these guys make great lures and know what they are talking about.

Your point concerning the thinner clear coat on some lures is a good one. I have built some lures in the past, swimbaits being one of them, that simply will not run with a thick coating of epoxy. In this case I have used the original DN but I know others are using auto clears.

Jed

[RayburnGuy]

Like Hughesy I can see valid points from both sides. And while I'm not even qualified to sweep out Hughesy's shop I have developed preferences in my short time in this obsession of lure crafting. If there was one perfect clear coat, paint, hook or any component we would all be using it. I look at it this way. If you've got 100 acres of heavily timbered land you want cleared then you wouldn't be using a weed whacker. You'd be using chain saws and bulldozers. Now if your wife wants her rose garden weeded you sure as hell ain't going in there with a D9 dozer. (not unless what your really after is a divorce) I knew when I first started tinkering with lures I was going to make choices that didn't work out or didn't fit with my way of doing things. These choices cost money whether they work as planned or not. Don't think there is any way around that. If there was only one BEST way then we wouldn't have a lot to talk about here at TU. There would just be a set of instructions on the front page as to which airbrush, compressor, paint, top coat, etc. to buy (and where to buy it) and then step by step instructions on how to build and finish a lure. Thank goodness that's not the way things are. Personally I enjoy some of these disagreements as they are where I learn the most. So keep arguing guys so I can keep soaking it in. Just keep it friendly.

Ben

[mark poulson]

Like Hughesy I can see valid points from both sides. And while I'm not even qualified to sweep out Hughesy's shop I have developed preferences in my short time in this obsession of lure crafting. If there was one perfect clear coat, paint, hook or any component we would all be using it. I look at it this way. If you've got 100 acres of heavily timbered land you want cleared then you wouldn't be using a weed whacker. You'd be using chain saws and bulldozers. Now if your wife wants her rose garden weeded you sure as hell ain't going in there with a D9 dozer. (not unless what your really after is a divorce) I knew when I first started tinkering with lures I was going to make choices that didn't work out or didn't fit with my way of doing things. These choices cost money whether they work as planned or not. Don't think there is any way around that. If there was only one BEST way then we wouldn't have a lot to talk about here at TU. There would just be a set of instructions on the front page as to which airbrush, compressor, paint, top coat, etc. to buy (and where to buy it) and then step by step instructions on how to build and finish a lure. Thank goodness that's not the way things are. Personally I enjoy some of these disagreements as they are where I learn the most. So keep arguing guys so I can keep soaking it in. Just keep it friendly.

Ben

Ben,

I have to disagree.

You're definately qualified to sweep out his shop, and don't let anyone tell you different!

[RayburnGuy]

Ben,

I have to disagree.

You're definately qualified to sweep out his shop, and don't let anyone tell you different!

[Hughesy]

Ben,

Your just lucky you don't live closer to me. I'd be putting your butt to work and not sweeping floors!

[RayburnGuy]

Ben,

Your just lucky you don't live closer to me. I'd be putting your butt to work and not sweeping floors!

If I lived closer to you I just might take you up on that. One thing though. I don't do windows.

Ben

[Silver Streak]

Great info, guys. A little off topic, but what would you recomend for a coating on metal spoon blanks that are Createx painted? I've tried the "old" DN and it was great...but I'm still looking for a dip that is much easier to store and is worm proof and doesn't peel off. I've also tried a auto lacquer clear coat...not very durable and worm proof.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Silver Streak

[BobP]

You've tried the most durable and easy to apply - Dick Nite S81 moisture cured urethane. The other thing I've tried is epoxy but it has several downsides. Harder to apply of course since it must be brushed on, but it also draws away from sharp edges, which means the spoon's edges will have minimal protection and the epoxy can quickly chip off there. Personally, I wouldn't dream of using anything else but S81. After all, it is custom formulated for dipping spoons.

[Silver Streak]

You've tried the most durable and easy to apply - Dick Nite S81 moisture cured urethane. The other thing I've tried is epoxy but it has several downsides. Harder to apply of course since it must be brushed on, but it also draws away from sharp edges, which means the spoon's edges will have minimal protection and the epoxy can quickly chip off there. Personally, I wouldn't dream of using anything else but S81. After all, it is custom formulated for dipping spoons.

Thanks for the reply...this site is great!!

[RiverMan]

Silver Streak,

I have used lacquer with good luck on spoons. Go down to the local hardware store and buy a rattle can of clear laquer. Spray on a LIGHT coat, wait 15 minutes and repeat. Put on 3 coats and you will be fine, works great on spoons and super easy to apply.

Jed

[Lure--Prof]

You've tried the most durable and easy to apply - Dick Nite S81 moisture cured urethane. The other thing I've tried is epoxy but it has several downsides. Harder to apply of course since it must be brushed on, but it also draws away from sharp edges, which means the spoon's edges will have minimal protection and the epoxy can quickly chip off there. Personally, I wouldn't dream of using anything else but S81. After all, it is custom formulated for dipping spoons.

+1!

Thanks Tim for your input into this topic! And I'll be glad to be a reference for Ben for the "not floor sweeping" job. I've heard he was good swinging those big Rayburn bass on broomsticks, so whether it's a shop floor, or testing lures on Table Rock, it shouldn't present near the challenge that the timber did in The Black Forest!

Edited March 19, 2011 by Lure--Prof

[RayburnGuy]

+1!

Thanks Tim for your input into this topic! And I'll be glad to be a reference for Ben for the "not floor sweeping" job. I've heard he was good swinging those big Rayburn bass on broomsticks, so whether it's a shop floor, or testing lures on Table Rock, it shouldn't present near the challenge that the timber did in The Black Forest!

Thanks for the reference Dino. Not many folks want to take a chance on us crazy Texans. And by the way, "broomsticks" are for sissies. If you can't beat a mule to death with it then it ain't stiff enough to pull a 10 pounder out of the hydrilla with a 1 1/2 oz jig. (if we had any hydrilla anymore)