Height Of Line Tie

[MEISTERICS]

I started poking around in regards to line tie height off the lip and how it affects the action of the bait. My baits have a line tie thru the lip and relatively flat pitch to achieve depth. i am going to guess the horizontal centerline has somethin to do with it, but i thought i would consider some of the experts. it seems that my baits are more stable/tighter with a taller line tie. Does anyone find this same finding? the line tie is also closer to the nose of the bait than further.

I am still searching around the forum to understand if what i found is a good theory/rule. but i have to help my wife with ACCOUNTING. i will be back at it shortly.

My inconsistancy is the hook hangers are slightly different from bait to bait, obviously changing ballast. slowly narrowing it down.

Thanks in advance.

lures are sensitive little creations!

[BobP]

I started poking around in regards to line tie height off the lip and how it affects the action of the bait. My baits have a line tie thru the lip and relatively flat pitch to achieve depth. i am going to guess the horizontal centerline has somethin to do with it, but i thought i would consider some of the experts. it seems that my baits are more stable/tighter with a taller line tie. Does anyone find this same finding? the line tie is also closer to the nose of the bait than further.

I am still searching around the forum to understand if what i found is a good theory/rule. but i have to help my wife with ACCOUNTING. i will be back at it shortly.

My inconsistancy is the hook hangers are slightly different from bait to bait, obviously changing ballast. slowly narrowing it down.

Thanks in advance.

lures are sensitive little creations!

I don't remember height of the line tie off the surface of a deep diver's lip being discussed on TU. Your comment about "sensitive little creations" is right! The deeper the bait is designed for, the more critical the details become. Baits are generally more sensitive, have wider action, and are more apt to blow out as the line tie is moved back toward the nose on a deep diver. My guess (and only that) is a taller line tie causes the "pull point" to shift slightly back toward the nose. In any case, if you are happy with the action you're getting, you nailed it. The trick then becomes building other baits exactly the same. The position and amount of ballast is critical in this equation because it determines the fore/aft balance of the bait and by extension, the working angle of the lip. I hope you took good notes!

[MEISTERICS]

I don't remember height of the line tie off the surface of a deep diver's lip being discussed on TU. Your comment about "sensitive little creations" is right! The deeper the bait is designed for, the more critical the details become. Baits are generally more sensitive, have wider action, and are more apt to blow out as the line tie is moved back toward the nose on a deep diver. My guess (and only that) is a taller line tie causes the "pull point" to shift slightly back toward the nose. In any case, if you are happy with the action you're getting, you nailed it. The trick then becomes building other baits exactly the same. The position and amount of ballast is critical in this equation because it determines the fore/aft balance of the bait and by extension, the working angle of the lip. I hope you took good notes!

Bob,

Thanks for you response! I think what you mean by the "nose" is the end of the lip and NOT where it meets the body? All my findings and research tell me that the closer the line tie is to the body the tighter the wiggle. Where as the further the line tie is from the body the wider the motion gets.

I am going to put a bit of solder around the top of my screw eye to give the bait a bit more ballast. It wont be a ton of weight but i am betting this is a case where a little does ALOT.

[diemai]

Bob,

Thanks for you response! I think what you mean by the "nose" is the end of the lip and NOT where it meets the body? All my findings and research tell me that the closer the line tie is to the body the tighter the wiggle. Where as the further the line tie is from the body the wider the motion gets.

I am going to put a bit of solder around the top of my screw eye to give the bait a bit more ballast. It wont be a ton of weight but i am betting this is a case where a little does ALOT.

If you're willing to invest a couple of bucks check out the book "Crankbait Secrets" by Joe Bucher , heaps of info about crankbait dynamics and all aspects of how to fish them described in there ,..... but no crankbait building .

Easy to understand even for me , that English is not my first language .

I remember , that the best tow eye position on a crankbait bill is refered as the "sweet spot" in there , ......THE line tie location , that would provide the possibly deepest dive without yet causing the lure to blow out .

http://www.amazon.com/Joe-Buchers-Crankbait-Secrets-Crankbaits/dp/0873417291

Some more info can probably be found in here :

http://www.crankbaitcentral.com/CrankbaitABCs/index.html

good luck , diemai

[rofish]

it seems that my baits are more stable/tighter with a taller line tie. Does anyone find this same finding? the line tie is also closer to the nose of the bait than further.

I have never tried to play around with the height of a tow point on the lip. But I did that with the tow point on the nose of the lure. It seems we have come to the same conclusion. If you use hard tempered wire, I think you could make 2 tow points on the lip, one on top of the other.

Some have played around with the tow point which was glued a little further from the body, thus being able to bend the wire of the tow point, to see how this change would affect the action. I think we need some expertise here.

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/gallery/image/3761-twin-tow-eye-twins/

[MEISTERICS]

Thank you for the responses. I had already been reading the crankbait ABC's. There is so much good info on there its not easy to remember it all it one our two swoops.

The sensitivy of these baits big or small is humbling to say least.

I have concluded that the height of the line tie is changing the action. The picture that Rofish linked reminded me of a bait i made last year. However the big difference was that the bait's line tie was inserted into the nose and not the lip. What i am saying is that this principle can be applied in both instances.

What a fun never ending experiment lure building is!

[MEISTERICS]

Oh yea,

I bought the book. It was listed for $4.95. That was an easy decision!

[mark poulson]

I've noticed that several crankbait manufs., mainly Rapala, actually recess their line ties in the bill.

Do you guys know why?

[BobP]

You're right, I misspoke. The action should get tighter as the line tie moves toward the nose of the bait (not the front of the lip). In a related and perhaps confusing case, the action gets wider if you bend the line tie in the nose of a jerkbait downward. The dominant trend for shallow runners with the tie in the nose is to position it right down on the lip's surface for maximum action. Looking at lots of deep divers, the line tie is typically just shy of 50% of the distance from the nose to the tip of the lip on lures with flat lips. If the lip is bent or cupped, that may not hold true.

I'm happy to buy "medium deep divers" 12-18 ft because there are lots of good ones to choose from at reasonable prices. If you want 20+ ft divers, you often need to build them. The position of the line tie is critical. Too near the nose, the action is too tight and it blows out. Near right but not "right on", it will seem to "stagger" as it swims. Just right and it will swim completely under the boat on a retrieve. When I'm prototyping a deep diver, I play around more with the position and amount of ballast than I do with the line tie because they are highly dependent variables and it's easier to modify ballast when swim testing the bait.

[diemai]

I've noticed that several crankbait manufs., mainly Rapala, actually recess their line ties in the bill.

Do you guys know why?

Mark , I assume , that this is also to achieve a tighter wiggle , .......I just imagine that if f.e. the tow eye bend(highest point where line loop or snap actually engages) would sit 1/2" above the lip's plane(just theoratically) , a certain kind of leverage would take place and cause the lure to swing further to either side and most likely blow out .

Maybe this recessed thus lower tow eye has just the opposite purpose and lets the lure run just a tad more stable and thus maybe other of it's dynamics could be altered in attempt to ge ta certain action , ..........but to be honest , I don not have a dead proof explanation as well !

@ MEISTERICS

I am definately sure , that you will enjoy the read !

greetz , Dieter

[MEISTERICS]

Mark , I assume , that this is also to achieve a tighter wiggle , .......I just imagine that if f.e. the tow eye bend(highest point where line loop or snap actually engages) would sit 1/2" above the lip's plane(just theoratically) , a certain kind of leverage would take place and cause the lure to swing further to either side and most likely blow out .

Maybe this recessed thus lower tow eye has just the opposite purpose and lets the lure run just a tad more stable and thus maybe other of it's dynamics could be altered in attempt to ge ta certain action , ..........but to be honest , I don not have a dead proof explanation as well !

@ MEISTERICS

I am definately sure , that you will enjoy the read !

greetz , Dieter

I have had baits where the tow eye was coming out from the bait that did not swim. The remedy was to bend the tie down.

[clemmy]

BobP was right about the jerkbaits. Back in the 80's in Minnesota we would weight Husky Rapalas to make them suspend (before they had suspending as an option) and we would bend down the line tie slightly to give a widdler action.

One thing I am not sure about is when you said a "higher" line tie in the lip made the bait more stable. If you literally meant "higher" as in using a taller loop, this could explain the increased stability somewhat, as extended line ties can be somewhat "self-tuning" for lack of a better term...

Clemmy

[MEISTERICS]

BobP was right about the jerkbaits. Back in the 80's in Minnesota we would weight Husky Rapalas to make them suspend (before they had suspending as an option) and we would bend down the line tie slightly to give a widdler action.

One thing I am not sure about is when you said a "higher" line tie in the lip made the bait more stable. If you literally meant "higher" as in using a taller loop, this could explain the increased stability somewhat, as extended line ties can be somewhat "self-tuning" for lack of a better term...

Clemmy

Ok, this is not me trying to sound like an expert, but after posting my question and reliving my experience along with responses from the experts. The line tie pointed down below the horizontal axis causes the bait to dig more, explaining the widder wobble. While have a higher line tie makes the bait not want to dig as much causing a tighter wiggle. BUT the lure requires so much dig in order to swim. Baits with line ties exaggerated downwards will not accept speed as willingly as a line tie that is higher.

Someone please correct me if there findings are any different. My question and and everyones post really helped me look back at a ton of other baits i had issues with to understand why they did not run.

Variables that must be condsidered are ballast, and line tie position(if line tie is on the lip). and lip design.

Boy, either i am catching on, or i am falling behind.

[BobP]

I think it is very hard to simplify crankbait design into a few laws. You can make valuable observations about one variable like line tie position as we have been doing, but you shouldn't think that controlling that one thing is going to make a great bait. If you get it "perfect" and change any other variable, you're back to square one. Every variable operates in relationship to every other variable: body size, shape, ballast position and amount, lip size, angle and shape, and line tie position.

After building hundreds of baits, my feeling is that some variables can be a little "off" in a shallow crankbait and you may not see or feel it. But it will make a difference to the bass. For a deep runner, the variables need to be more in sync or it will be easy to feel there is a problem when you retrieve the bait. As much as anything, an educated feel when retrieving a bait will tell you more about its fish catching ability than anything else. It takes lots of fishing with both good and bad baits to develop that "touch". Sometimes I think I almost have it...then it slips just out of my grasp

[diemai]

I think it is very hard to simplify crankbait design into a few laws. You can make valuable observations about one variable like line tie position as we have been doing, but you shouldn't think that controlling that one thing is going to make a great bait. If you get it "perfect" and change any other variable, you're back to square one. Every variable operates in relationship to every other variable: body size, shape, ballast position and amount, lip size, angle and shape, and line tie position.

That is kinda what I was going to say in my last post , ........but I did not find a nice way to put it in words !

greetz , Dieter

[MEISTERICS]

That is kinda what I was going to say in my last post , ........but I did not find a nice way to put it in words !

greetz , Dieter

I totally agree with both of you. I have been trying to hone in on one specific bait that is one of the consistency's.

Thank you for all your help.

[rofish]

Ok, this is not me trying to sound like an expert, but after posting my question and reliving my experience along with responses from the experts. The line tie pointed down below the horizontal axis causes the bait to dig more, explaining the widder wobble. While have a higher line tie makes the bait not want to dig as much causing a tighter wiggle. BUT the lure requires so much dig in order to swim. Baits with line ties exaggerated downwards will not accept speed as willingly as a line tie that is higher.

Someone please correct me if there findings are any different.

I will correct you, if you don't mind.

The only thing that I can find wrong in your post is that you are afraid not to be seen as trying to sound like an expert, while I can see you have already become one, since you were able to answer yourself a specific question. The question was clear - what happens if I raise or if I lower the tow point of the same, unique crankbait? There is only one variable involved here. And I think you have found the right answer.

When building crankbaits, you have to take into account that there are a lot of variables that affect the action, and in this case you have to take notice of what BobP said. Indeed, there is a "sweet point" for the eye location on the lip, but further on, you can put it higher or lower. Or use 2 tow eyes, one on top of the other. Instead of a setup with 2 wire eyes, as I mentioned before, I think a better one could be made out of a small piece of metal sheet (SS, brass, or other) of an appropriate thickness and size. You make 3 holes in it, in a row, out of which 2 will be on top of the lip, and the third one below it. From the third one, you could attach a wire that goes into the body, just as an usual wire eye, then put some epoxy along the wire. This is just an idea that can be improved. This way, you could see the difference in action of the same lure, but with 2 tow points, one raised, and one lowered.

[mark poulson]

I am SO glad you guys are tackling this. I would never have the patience, or expertise, to figure it out on my own.

I just copy the shapes, bill, and line tie positions of cranks I like. I play with the ballast until I get the lures to float right, and that's as far as I get into crankbait design.

I don't make them to sell, just to fish, so I don't feel bad about copying someone else's work, and it shortens my learning curve.

Making a new lure is fun, but I make them to fish, so I'm kind of impatient, and don't think I could ever dedicate myself to "pure research" like you guys have.

Thanks for all your hard work, and for sharing your knowledge.

Mark

[MEISTERICS]

Rofish,

You are right. I have been able to experience a number of things. I guess i have not thought them all out or applied them to prior mistakes/findings. I will take it as a compliment. Thank you.

Sometimes i read the posts from advance builders talking about all the axis' and physics..... i just get lost and say thats way beyond my understanding.

This is the first time i related an axis to my work.

Trufully i have never even had to weight a lure for ballast(some i wish i had). But i am giving it a whirl. I am hoping a LITTLE does a LOT. Being that the weight of a hook can ballast a lure i would guess it does not take a signigicant amount of weight to help out. most of the issues i have with my baits is when they achieve high speeds. 4.8mph or higher.

Meisterics....

[BobP]

I am SO glad you guys are tackling this. I would never have the patience, or expertise, to figure it out on my own.

I just copy the shapes, bill, and line tie positions of cranks I like. I play with the ballast until I get the lures to float right, and that's as far as I get into crankbait design.

I don't make them to sell, just to fish, so I don't feel bad about copying someone else's work, and it shortens my learning curve.

Making a new lure is fun, but I make them to fish, so I'm kind of impatient, and don't think I could ever dedicate myself to "pure research" like you guys have.

Thanks for all your hard work, and for sharing your knowledge.

Mark

Mark, I feel like you do. Most of the baits I build take a successful commercial bait as a starting point. I don't make them just to test a theory - I want them to catch fish after the topcoat dries. If I absorb some insights about design performance along the way, great. Hopefully, the insights help me to improve my cranks with the least effort and number of duds. I appreciate when guys test design theories and report their results.

[pizza]

I like low line ties, especially for shallow running bouyant baits. In theory it should make them more erratic/unstable which may make them better hunters. Here are a few with low line ties that I will soon (lol) foil.

[LaPala]

You can do this (see pic) to find ur sweet-spot for a tow-eye in-lip crank.

The separate tow-eye insert can be taped to the lip from below while testing. Experimenting with diff tow-eye heights will just be making a few tow-eye inserts with different height. But for me, if the height of tow-eye needs adjustment, it means the lip angle need changing; if I cannot find a sweet spot at that particular lip angle.

[diemai]

You can do this (see pic) to find ur sweet-spot for a tow-eye in-lip crank.

The separate tow-eye insert can be taped to the lip from below while testing. Experimenting with diff tow-eye heights will just be making a few tow-eye inserts with different height. But for me, if the height of tow-eye needs adjustment, it means the lip angle need changing; if I cannot find a sweet spot at that particular lip angle.

Great idea about that temporary "testing " lip , ....thanks for posting !

greetz , Dieter

[Vodkaman]

You can do this (see pic) to find ur sweet-spot for a tow-eye in-lip crank.

The separate tow-eye insert can be taped to the lip from below while testing. Experimenting with diff tow-eye heights will just be making a few tow-eye inserts with different height. But for me, if the height of tow-eye needs adjustment, it means the lip angle need changing; if I cannot find a sweet spot at that particular lip angle.

Very neat. Good solution LP.

Dave