Epoxy Clear Coat - Rod Building Epoxies?

[sportsfisher]

hello,

this is my first post here,

i'm currently using auto clears on lures, i havnt used any epoxy like disk nite etc.

my question is can rod building epoxies be used with sucess as a clear coat? is it any different than DN and others ?

thanks.

[Matt Moreau]

hello,

this is my first post here,

i'm currently using auto clears on lures, i havnt used any epoxy like disk nite etc.

my question is can rod building epoxies be used with sucess as a clear coat? is it any different than DN and others ?

thanks.

Yes a lot of people like Rod Building epoxy like flexcoat and such to be used as a topcoat. I have never tried it but heard it is a very good top coat. It is however nothing like Dick Nite's. Dont be confused though DN is not an epoxy it is a moisture cured urethane. Do a search on DN and you will find oudles and oudles of info.

[BobP]

hello,

this is my first post here,

i'm currently using auto clears on lures, i havnt used any epoxy like disk nite etc.

my question is can rod building epoxies be used with sucess as a clear coat? is it any different than DN and others ?

thanks.

The 2 most popular epoxies are Devcon 2 Ton (a glue) and Envirotex Lite (aka Etex, a table top finish). But several noted crankbait builders prefer rod epoxies like Flexcoat, etc. As far as the end results go, I personally don't think there's much difference in epoxies (clarity, durability, etc). In a practical sense, the main difference involves whether and how much solvent they contain. Devcon has none. Rod epoxies have some. Etex has quite a bit. The more solvent, the thinner the coating and the longer you must rotate the lure after coating to prevent sags or drips. Etex, the thinnest popular epoxy, requires multiple coats and long rotation to build up acceptable film thickness. It has a reputation of having the best resilience in cold conditions and is popular among musky bait builders. Devcon requires only a single coat and relatively short rotation times, and it's popular among bass bait builders. Flexcoat is probably somewhere in between (but I haven't tried it).

Dick Nite sells several topcoats but none of them are epoxies. JMHO, if you are already using a 2 part high solids auto clear, you may find other options less attractive. Many of us would try it except for its toxicity and the safety precautions it requires.

[benton B]

I've been using flex coat ultra V (high build) for several yrs and I'm very pleased with the results. The only other clear coat I've used was Devcon 2 ton and the flex coat beats it in every way. You need a drying wheel as flex coat needs to be turned approx 3 hrs and then hung up for 24hrs. It's a brush on clear that is fairly thin so 2 coats is needed for bass baits.

[sportsfisher]

thanks for the replies, much apreciated.

so DN being a urethane is much easier to use than 2 part epoxies?

is it similar to CS seal coat??

i have flex coat (normal thin one) and also the high build, im guessing the high build has less solvent in it.

i will experiment with both, but which do you guys think would be better to use?

-benton B; have you tried the thinner flex coat?

thanks for your help.

[archeryrob]

Where is the best places to buy Devcon or this DN?

[Vodkaman]

Where is the best places to buy Devcon or this DN?

Devcon 2 ton (D2T) is a two part epoxy with a 30 minute working time (supposedly).

DN refers to Dick Nite, who sells three different coatings, S81 S82 and S83. If you click the blue highlighted text, you will get brief information on each.

Dave

[BobP]

Prices for moisture cured urethanes like Dick Nite S81 and for Devcon Two Ton epoxy are pretty uniform. Dick Nite provides TU members with a discount IF you order via a special page on his website via this link: http://www.dicknite.com/TU_Lander.htm

Devcon epoxy can be bought in small double syringes, enough for a few baits, or in larger 8 oz double bottles from various sources. I usually buy it here: http://www.texaswoodcarvers.com/

[bassfan586]

I use flex coat high build and love it. You have to rotate about 3-5 hrs then hang at least 24 hrs.

[BobP]

thanks for the replies, much apreciated.

so DN being a urethane is much easier to use than 2 part epoxies?

is it similar to CS seal coat??

i have flex coat (normal thin one) and also the high build, im guessing the high build has less solvent in it.

i will experiment with both, but which do you guys think would be better to use?

-benton B; have you tried the thinner flex coat?

thanks for your help.

I haven't used CS Seal Coat so can't comment. DN S81 (moisture cured urethane): I dip baits in it to topcoat them so yeah, you can say it's easy to use! Dip it, hang it, done! On the other hand, the S81 is difficult to store and takes several days to reach a useful cure state. Read up on the many TU posts for the pros and cons, and how to avoid storage problems with S81 (until recently, S81 was the only topcoat product that Dick Nite sold, so comments about "DN" more than a few months old are about S81; now he also sells a water based topcoat named S83 and a plastic-coat topcoat.) Personally, I still prefer the original moisture cured S81 urethane.

In my experience, DN S81 and epoxy are both good durable products, just significantly different in how they look and how they are applied. I still use both of them. If you like the look and performance of an auto clearcoat, the DN S81 is close to that in looks and performance. If you want a thicker coating with a more "traditional wood crankbait" look, the epoxy may be the ticket.

[sportsfisher]

I haven't used CS Seal Coat so can't comment. DN S81 (moisture cured urethane): I dip baits in it to topcoat them so yeah, you can say it's easy to use! Dip it, hang it, done! On the other hand, the S81 is difficult to store and takes several days to reach a useful cure state. Read up on the many TU posts for the pros and cons, and how to avoid storage problems with S81 (until recently, S81 was the only topcoat product that Dick Nite sold, so comments about "DN" more than a few months old are about S81; now he also sells a water based topcoat named S83 and a plastic-coat topcoat.) Personally, I still prefer the original moisture cured S81 urethane.

In my experience, DN S81 and epoxy are both good durable products, just significantly different in how they look and how they are applied. I still use both of them. If you like the look and performance of an auto clearcoat, the DN S81 is close to that in looks and performance. If you want a thicker coating with a more "traditional wood crankbait" look, the epoxy may be the ticket.

thanks BobP,

i would like to get some DN but cannot seem to find it here, and i dont think it can be posted overseas??

i can however get the CS seal coat no problem. so i might try it.

i would like to keep the coating as thin as possible, but still be durable.

would this be easier to achive with DN ??

ive used the flex coat for years for rod building, i just havnt tried it on a lure.

does anyone know if CS seal coat is a urethane like DN?

[benton B]

I've only used the high build, make sure that you have the Ultra V version so the baits won't yellow. Mix the clear for approx 2 min and let sit for another 8-10 min before brushing it on. If you don't it's too thin and will run/sag on your baits.

[archeryrob]

Devcon 2 ton (D2T) is a two part epoxy with a 30 minute working time (supposedly).

DN refers to Dick Nite, who sells three different coatings, S81 S82 and S83. If you click the blue highlighted text, you will get brief information on each.

Dave

Damn, I bought two dispensers of Devcon "5 minute epoxy" I coated on plug and it seemed very think with the tooth pick. Started in a little plug and it all gummed up. I guess I got to let it harden, sand it and coat it over. % minute epoxy it too hard to use past 90 seconds or more. so I got to get the 30 minute stuff.

How about this stuff that lowes had? This is $17 for 8 0z and 60 minute work time, so I should be able to paint several with one waste brush. Where as Devcon is 30 minutes and $4.50 for 7/8 oz.

This 5 minute stuff is the WRONG stuff!!!!

Edited May 4, 2011 by archeryrob

[archeryrob]

5 minute epoxy FAIL. Notice the little minnow.

Edited May 4, 2011 by archeryrob

[benton B]

As you have discovered the 5min devcon is not used for the clear coat. It has to be the 2ton devcon and you will only get approx 8min of work time from that. You need epoxy that will be clear after curing. I'm not sure the loctite brand is a clear epoxy.

If you bait is wood then just hit with a torch and the epoxy will start peeling off the bait. Sand it down smooth and repaint. If the bait is plastic then use a knife point and peel the epoxy off. Sanding that stuff down is a royal pain.

Edited May 4, 2011 by benton B

[BobP]

Damn, I bought two dispensers of Devcon "5 minute epoxy" I coated on plug and it seemed very think with the tooth pick. Started in a little plug and it all gummed up. I guess I got to let it harden, sand it and coat it over. % minute epoxy it too hard to use past 90 seconds or more. so I got to get the 30 minute stuff.

How about this stuff that lowes had? This is $17 for 8 0z and 60 minute work time, so I should be able to paint several with one waste brush. Where as Devcon is 30 minutes and $4.50 for 7/8 oz.

This 5 minute stuff is the WRONG stuff!!!!

I haven't tried Loctite "Extra Time". You can only try it and see. Give it a close look before you buy to insure the resin and hardener are both clear liquids (hardeners are always a little honey colored). My guess is that it contains some solvent like rod epoxies and Etex do. I buy Devcon 30 minute Two Ton at http://www.texaswoodcarvers.com/Tool_Catalog/Adhesives.htm#Epoxy%20Glue for $13.95 for a 9 oz bottle set. Shipping might bring the total to more than buying Extra Time locally, but the site has a bunch of materials and tools that are useful in crankbait building, so you might check it out.

BTW, Loctite bought out Devcon awhile back, so there may be some convergence in their product lines.

Some guys report Devcon 2 Ton seems to have a shorter "work time" than it used to. I'm not sure, but I almost always mix a few drops of denatured alcohol (DA) into the mix before brushing it. That increases the brush time by a couple of minutes, enough to get Devcon on a couple of bass baits before it gets too thick. It also helps the mix expel bubbles. I mix the hell out of Devcon for at least a full minute, so it's a little hectic to get it on the bait before hardening if I don't use the DA.

The critical things for a good epoxy topcoat are measuring the volumes of resin and hardener equally and mixing them very well. If you don't, the epoxy may not harden or it may turn brown prematurely. If 24 hrs passes and it's not rock hard, you fail the measuring/mixing test!

Edited May 5, 2011 by BobP

[archeryrob]

The Loctite "Extra Time" says it's "translucent Amber" so, probably not the best choice there and should look for something else. I like the Devcon 5 minute stuff once on. I figured out to mix a batch sized to the lure and spread it on with a tooth pick. Then rotate back and forth and it evens out. I can only do one lure at a time.

I am interested in the Envirotex lite and if I can find it locally. K-mart say they have it, but I have to look around. I am wondering how hard it is compared to Devcon. And also how hard water based poly's like just plain Varathane are? I would guess Varathane is Bass approved, but not for Muskie lures, but just guessing on my own here.

Edited May 5, 2011 by archeryrob

[mark poulson]

Archery Rob,

Be sure to read the label carefully. Devcon 5 minute epoxy is water resistant, not waterproof, like their D2T epoxy.

As to which epoxy to use, there are basically two kinds of epoxies we use, glues and decoupage.

Devcon 30 minute, aka D2T, is a glue. It cures out extremely hard and strong, but it is also brittle. It is designed to anchor things to each other, not to coat things, so bear that in mind. If you put it over large wood surfaces that will expand and contract, like big swimbaits, it will eventually crack, because it is not designed to flex.

Decoupage epoxies, like Etex and Nu Lustre, are meant to cover large flat wood surfaces, like table tops and bars. They are formulated to be able to move with the wood without cracking.

Rod building epoxies, like Flexcoat, are also designed to flex, as the name implies.

I've used D2T on plastic crankbaits that are still fishing fine. And it is tooth resistant, moreso than Etex.

When I used it as a top coat for my wooden swimbaits, it always cracked eventually, and more quickly if I hit a rock on a cast.

Etex doesn't crack, but it does dent. It relies on the hardness of the lure body to provide a sound base.

I hope this helps.

[archeryrob]

I am thinking about stopping for a while until I get some Etex or D2T, the Devcon 5 minute epoxy still feels slightly tacky. Now I would say, it was me if it was one batch, but 4 separate lures and all fell slightly tacky. Not like your finger would stick to it but you notice it and hair will not fall off of it. I will save it and use it for when I start cutting square billed lips for cranks baits, but I am looking for one or other top coats. I think the Etex would be fine. Muskie only hit once in a while. I'll learn to live with some dents, the lures are "almost" free.

Edited May 5, 2011 by archeryrob

[muskydan666]

Hey guys!all those epoxie like nu-luste and d2t do they smell bad??Is it toxic or not that bad???Tank's.Dan

[mark poulson]

Hey guys!all those epoxie like nu-luste and d2t do they smell bad??Is it toxic or not that bad???Tank's.Dan

Dan,

I'm pretty sure any of the epoxy fumes will be toxic if you inhale enough of them.

Having said that, I've never had any problems with either D2T, Nu Lustre, or Etex. I think they all use denatured alcohol as a solvent, and, since I work in an open garage, the fumes are never an issue for me.

I'm not sure I'd be so cavalier if I had to work in an enclosed space.

If you're concerned, call or email the companies that make the epoxies, and ask them. The last thing they want is someone to get sick from their products, so they will err on the side of caution.

Unlike me, they actually know what they're talking about.

Mark

[muskydan666]

Dan,

I'm pretty sure any of the epoxy fumes will be toxic if you inhale enough of them.

Having said that, I've never had any problems with either D2T, Nu Lustre, or Etex. I think they all use denatured alcohol as a solvent, and, since I work in an open garage, the fumes are never an issue for me.

I'm not sure I'd be so cavalier if I had to work in an enclosed space.

If you're concerned, call or email the companies that make the epoxies, and ask them. The last thing they want is someone to get sick from their products, so they will err on the side of caution.

Unlike me, they actually know what they're talking about.

Mark

Thank's Mark!I never used any epoxies like those so I realy dont know if it smell bad or if they are toxic.I use 5min. epoxies for my eyes and lips,do they smell like dose???Or it's not the same thing???

[mark poulson]

Thank's Mark!I never used any epoxies like those so I realy dont know if it smell bad or if they are toxic.I use 5min. epoxies for my eyes and lips,do they smell like dose???Or it's not the same thing???

Dan,

They are similar. They all have a little smell, but I don't have any reaction to them, and I have bad allergies.

But you should really contact the epoxy manufs. to be sure about toxicity.

[hillbilly1]

Damn, I bought two dispensers of Devcon "5 minute epoxy" I coated on plug and it seemed very think with the tooth pick. Started in a little plug and it all gummed up. I guess I got to let it harden, sand it and coat it over. % minute epoxy it too hard to use past 90 seconds or more. so I got to get the 30 minute stuff.

How about this stuff that lowes had? This is $17 for 8 0z and 60 minute work time, so I should be able to paint several with one waste brush. Where as Devcon is 30 minutes and $4.50 for 7/8 oz.

This 5 minute stuff is the WRONG stuff!!!!

Nearly all of the loctites cure to a med amber to a translucent amber. For just a couple $$ more you could get Famowood Quart Clear Coat Epoxy Kit from lowes I had a gift card for them and got a quart kit it sets just like Etex and just as clear. A little easier to find. and a little cheaper

[BobP]

Dan - I've never seen any reports here on TU about guys having an allergic reaction to an epoxy resin or hardener (there are several different hardeners) but the MSDS literature usually mentions the possibility, so if you are concerned I would check out the MSDS sheet on a particular product. In my experience, there are minimal if any fumes when epoxies are mixed up in the small batches that bait makers use. If you were spreading a gallon of epoxy to fiberglass a boat in a closed area, it might be different.

Archeryrob - I don't care for the idea of applying epoxy with a toothpick. Too slow and it may leave areas where the epoxy is not uniformly in contact with the surface, which can result in fisheyes and voids. Try smoothing it on with a cheap artist's brush 1/4" wide. You'll get more reliable results, faster. Clean the brush in lacquer thinner or acetone afterwards and you can re-use it hundreds of times.