Musky Glenn Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Most of my painting is just repaints of good quality lures. I have painted enough to basically know what to do, but some times "stuff happens" and I thought this would be a good time to show every one what happened to me. We don't see a lot of stuff that has gone wrong on this web site because of the quality of work you guys produce. I only paint for myself so that is why I don't pay more attention to the quality of some of the eyes. This was a rush job one night to have the lures ready for the next morning. All these lures were painted last Fri. and fished Sat. morning. I used a hair dryer to dry the white base coat and paint. Over night painting hasn't been a problem in the past. The problem may be in the epoxy I used as it seemed dry to the touch but couldn't stand up to the water. They looked fine until they got wet. In the two photos you can see two similar bottles of epoxy with the one on the right being the one I used on these lures. The one on the left is unopened and you can see a difference in color between the two packages. These lures are dry in the photo and the paint is loose on the lures in the first photo. In the second photo I have peeled back the loose paint to show how flexible it still is. There was water under the paint. Separation happened between the base coat and finished color. http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd58/muskyglenn/lures/badlures003.jpg http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd58/muskyglenn/lures/badlures005.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillbilly1 Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Stuff Happens Boy aint that the truth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 I can't be 100% positive, but to my way of thinking if the top coat hadn't failed water would never have gotten under the paint. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Glenn Posted September 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Rayburn Guy, I agree with you 100%, that it was a failure in the epoxy top coat. When I mixed the first batch of epoxy to finish these lures, I wasn't sure about the mixture because there was a small difference in the amount of each part because of air in one of the tubes. I mixed three different batches for these lures doing just a couple of lures out of each batch. On the second and third batches the amounts were right on. I couldn't tell any difference between first, second or third batch as they all reacted the same. Hillbilly1, I'm 65 and used to think that when I got this old, stuff like this wouldn't bother me, wrong. Being retired, I just have more time to correct it. If I can't pass anything else on to you guys, it is this. Copy that orange and red Sammy, it is a killer color ! They make a factory color, like that, that I was trying to copy. Musky Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Glenn Posted September 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 The color I was trying to copy, from memory, is called "ms red". This color has more yellow on the belly than my lure does. Musky Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowhunter Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 I couldn't disagree more. If I may, it clearly seems to be an adhesion issue between the paint and the primer, and/ or primer to the lure. Can you tell us how they were prepped and what type primer was used? It looks as if the epoxy is holding quite well to the topcoat paint. Thanks for your post, Douglas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matador Customs Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 Stuff definenitly happen. I was wondering if you have ever used automotive clear cloat that stuff dries in a few hours, at least the one i have used, leaves a great finish and has never peeled the next day after ive fished them. I sometimes paint ko's and repaint old lures And found that spraying auto clear on these lures works and looks better than using etex or d2t. I still use etex but on my bigger wooden swimbaits. I buy this stuff at walmart its a 16oz Spray and relatively cheap for the amount of lures it can coat, about a dozen with three or four coats each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishsticks Posted September 26, 2011 Report Share Posted September 26, 2011 I used a similar process using a hair dryer to dry my paint faster. I epoxied my lures and after about 3 lures I noticed my paint starting to wrinkle under the epoxy. My problem was not from water like yours but from not letting my coats of paint cool properly. I dried my next lure with the hair dryer and let it sit for an hour to cool, applied epoxy and no wrinkles. No telling how many things can cause paint to come up but like you said stuff happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny.Barile Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I found the same thing. If you heat set acrylic paints they tend to act like a shrink wrap. They get kinda tight. As it cools it loosens up a bit. If you put another coat on while it is still hot, it will be loosening underneath the new coat that is shrinking. That is sort of the equivalent of an earthquake. Two slabs going in different directions....LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Can't say that I agree with the heating/cooling thing. I use a heat gun to dry the acrylic paint between each coat and it gets much, much hotter than a hair dryer. Maybe if the paint weren't getting completely dry it could trap moisture under the top coat, but drying the crap out of it has not resulted in any problems for me. On the Createx tech page they say to heat the paint until it is warm to the touch. Gonna try and ask a question here and am not being sarcastic so please don't jump down my throat. If the issue is one of the paint not adhering to the base coat will the paint trying to curl up overpower the strength of the epoxy so much that it causes the top coat to fail? Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Glenn Posted September 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Rowhunter, The best of the lures was a Lucky Craft Sammy 100 that I scuffed up the factory clear coat with wet or dry sand paper. I never use primer over factory finishes. I just spray white Createx on enough to get a pure white base color. I dry every coat of paint with a hair dryer. I mixed three different batches of epoxy to do these few lures and all three batches of epoxy did the same. Sat. morning all the lures looked good and no wrinkles at all. This was after 13 hours drying time. But with 15 minutes of fishing the Sammy had started to peel at the head end and after 30 minutes you could see wrinkles all along the body. The separation did occur between the base and color coat, but how did the water get there to do that? The white Createx would smear because it had softened up so much. Lobina Fiend, Would you mind telling me the name of the auto spray paint you buy in a spray can at Walmart. I want to give that a try. Rayburn Guy, If you look closely at the wrinkling in the first photo you can tell that there is no pressure being applied from the inside of the paint. The wrinkles are to "loose", the clear coat expanded and softened up from what it had been earlier in the morning. The clear coat didn't feel right when I started fishing with it, you could tell it wasn't "hard" and "slick" like it should have been. My fingers would slide across the lure and not leave finger prints but I could tell it wasn't brittle. I went back and read the instructions and it didn't mention anything about this epoxy being water proof. Maybe I am trying to do something with this epoxy that it isn't meant to do. I will mix up some more and see if it happens again. Thanks to all of you for your comments. Musky Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowhunter Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Musky Glen, it would be my opinion that you might want to substitute Fusion primer for the createx white. It seems to have a much better bite on the plastic and a good bonding surface for the paint. As far as the epoxy goes, a little discoloration is typical. That is not to say that it is not the reason for trouble. In this case there may be more than one culprit. Rayburn Guy, if any step in the prep, prime and paint process is faulty , the top coat is just along for the ride. It can do a lot in holding it all together, but just a small infusion in the barrier and the house of cards will fall. Douglas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 You might also try a tip that Mark Poulson passed along. I've been using it when doing repaints and it's been working really well for me. After doing your sanding give the lure a quick dip in clean acetone. I used to wash baits in hot water and Dawn dish washing liquid before trying the quick dip in acetone. It not only saves time, but assures me there are no oils left on the bait before painting and the acetone flashes off really quick meaning I don't have to worry about drying water off the bait before painting. I never prime my baits with any type of primer or adhesion promoter. After the acetone flashes off I just start painting with Createx or Auto Air paints. If there are any doubts about the acetone flashing off just hit the bait with a quick blast of the hair dryer. I'll never know as much about painting as a lot of the folks here, but these steps have been working with no problems for quite a while now. good luck, Ben 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matador Customs Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Glen, the spray i buy is rustoleum brand enamel based automotive clear coat. Although like these guys pointed out it might no have been your epoxie but just a hiccup in you process. Never the less give that spray a shot, for 6 bucks a can it wont hurt and you might even like it. If your primer is the culprit ive had good results using Kilz original primer also a spray. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodieb8 Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 those pictures are straight up. no adhesion from orignal coat to re-paint. you need an etch prime ,lacquer based yo bite the orignal paintwork. no top coat will correct that. it begins from the re-paint.. on wood its even worse without a sealer to bite into the the wooden pores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambennett Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I don't know, Glen, but to me the different colors in the epoxy tubes are too suspect to be overlooked. Sure, could be lots of other things, but if you're saying those are the same brand I'd question whether you just got a bum batch. If the topcoat fails it could definitely cause that sort of unwrapping at the basecoat. I'd look there a little more first. If you can get a working bait from that same tube of epoxy it'd prove my hunch is invalid. But that's where I'd look. Actually, I wouldn't. I'd just try that tube with the different colored parts and if it works, move on! Heh. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobv Posted September 27, 2011 Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 I've had a similar problem in the past. I was shooting too much paint at once. When I heat set it, a skin would form over some still wet paint underneath. It felt dry to touch but after clearing it wrinkled up like crazy. I was using Etex and have never had that happen before. A friend suggested what I was doing wrong and I've never had it happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Glenn Posted September 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2011 Rowhunter, Rayburn Guy, Lobina Fiend, Woodieb8, SamBennett and Bobv--- I really do appreciate all the ideas and thoughts. I will take your comments and I will give each a try. Now, if I can just remember which paints I used to come up with the red/orange lure Musky Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted September 28, 2011 Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 Regardless of what's underneath (primer - no primer, whatever paint, plastic or wood) - my opinion is your finish will stay on there as long as a waterproof epoxy topcoat is intact and cured. Once water gets through the epoxy and into the acrylic paint underneath, it expands and delaminates the finish. That's what this looks like to me. I've never used a solvent based primer on plastic lures and have never had one delaminate (I use D2T). I'm not saying you couldn't or shouldn't. Heck, it might even be superior. But I have never had a problem without them and I hate the lingering stink of the solvent based primers I've tried. Glenn, look at the bright side - at least the lures will be easy to strip and repaint now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Glenn Posted September 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 I mixed up two batches of the glue seen in the second photo. One from each glue bottle and both of them acted alike. I didn't put them on anything, just left them where I mixed them, side by side. Let them dry for a couple of hours and they never reached anywhere near a brittle stage. I couldn't leave a finger print or dent with finger nail but they remained very flexible.I placed them in a sink of water for a couple of hours and it didn't change them. I think I will wait and go back to d2t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 (edited) Have you thought about trying the Bill Smith 30 minute epoxy Glenn? I like it better than D2T. It seems to have a little more working time than D2T and I don't seem to have as much trouble with bubbles with the Bill Smith epoxy. Of course I'm not building lures for fish whose teeth looked like they came out of a werewolf, but it seems to dry just as hard and clear as the D2T. And it's a little cheaper too. If your interested just holler and I'll send you the link to where I get mine. Ben Edited September 29, 2011 by RayburnGuy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
