A-Mac Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) I had the intention of sealing my foiled balsa baits with the propionate before painting and then clearing over that with dn. I was getting milky results with my acetone and propionate. I tried the jar trick, but it still wasn't perfectly clear. I picked up some lacquer thinner a while back after reading that VIRGIN lacquer thinner was the best to use. I looked all over (even other states) for VIRGIN lacquer thinner but all that I could find was "lacquer thinner." I bought some normal "lacquer thinner" from wally world to try with the mix with the thought that maybe it was VIRGIN. Well, my lures turned solid white instead of clear! If anyone has a great formula for the mythical "clear" coat of propionate it would be great. I've tried hanging in jars with acetone drops in the bottom too. This helped, but still not worthy of having saying its a good clean foil look. Any help would be great! Thanks and happy holidays! Edited December 23, 2011 by A-Mac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincoya Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 I bought my virgin lacquer thinner at Advance Auto Parts. If I remember right, it was about $9.00 a quart. Gene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint M Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Its hard to find a virgin these days!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltshaker Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 Its hard to find a virgin these days!! Didn't used to be that way when I was growin' up. They were a dime a dozen then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sallystrothers Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 I had the intention of sealing my foiled balsa baits with the propionate before painting and then clearing over that with dn. I was getting milky results with my acetone and propionate. I tried the jar trick, but it still wasn't perfectly clear. I picked up some lacquer thinner a while back after reading that VIRGIN lacquer thinner was the best to use. I looked all over (even other states) for VIRGIN lacquer thinner but all that I could find was "lacquer thinner." I bought some normal "lacquer thinner" from wally world to try with the mix with the thought that maybe it was VIRGIN. Well, my lures turned solid white instead of clear! If anyone has a great formula for the mythical "clear" coat of propionate it would be great. I've tried hanging in jars with acetone drops in the bottom too. This helped, but still not worthy of having saying its a good clean foil look. Any help would be great! Thanks and happy holidays! Might try some MEK. I use an ABS glue which is polystyrene and butadiene and is pre-dissolved in acetone and MEK. In a jar the stuff is milky white but when thinned out as a coating it is clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Mac Posted December 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 MEK eh? I was eyeballin that stuff. On the plus side, if the lure is wood in the raw it saves some white paint for a base coat, but this doesn't help me for coating over foil. I just hate cracking open my DN to simply make a coating to paint on...plus propionate helps to smooth the surface over the foil before paint (and it doesn't start a cure process if openned). I still want to use my DN as my final clear if possible, I just want to build the body and smooth imperfections with the propionate first. If I was confident in using propionate as a clear I would. I'm afraid it would have adverse effects if applied over some paints. I bought my virgin lacquer thinner at Advance Auto Parts. If I remember right, it was about $9.00 a quart. Gene Ill check that out too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 MEK eh? I was eyeballin that stuff. On the plus side, if the lure is wood in the raw it saves some white paint for a base coat, but this doesn't help me for coating over foil. I just hate cracking open my DN to simply make a coating to paint on...plus propionate helps to smooth the surface over the foil before paint (and it doesn't start a cure process if openned). I still want to use my DN as my final clear if possible, I just want to build the body and smooth imperfections with the propionate first. If I was confident in using propionate as a clear I would. I'm afraid it would have adverse effects if applied over some paints. Ill check that out too! Why don't you use a coat of epoxy over your foil? It hides the foil edges well and is self leveling so it gives a good smooth surface to paint over. You will need a lure turner though. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Mac Posted December 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 I'm trying to get away from epoxy. Don't get me wrong, it works great. I'm trying to bump it up to about 40 lures at time and I'd much rather dip coat if I can. Less chance of dropping one on the floor. Might have to resort back to epoxy anyway... but I'm trying out other methods that have seemed to work for other people first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodieb8 Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 If your plans are to do dozens at a time i still recommend lacquer sand sealer.. then the foils. i know your still required a wh/primer coat but, sanding sealer dries fast. i tried the propanite approach years back.. it wasnt for our baits. we had cracking issues. just a thought as others have had excellent results with other solvents, paints, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Mac Posted December 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 If your plans are to do dozens at a time i still recommend lacquer sand sealer.. then the foils. i know your still required a wh/primer coat but, sanding sealer dries fast. i tried the propanite approach years back.. it wasnt for our baits. we had cracking issues. just a thought as others have had excellent results with other solvents, paints, etc. good to know. I haven't had any cracking issues yet, but I can see the potential. I've never even heard of lacquer sand sealer. After doing a little googlin', I see the the Lacquer sand sealer (LSS) has a solvent with a high amount of solids. Most wood workers use as the first couple coats over the wood. Apparently, the solids in the LSS allow for an easy surface to sand smooth (versus using an polyurethane). So you are using the LSS, then putting your foil on? Are you then using LSS as a coating over the foil too before painting? Does this product dry clear? Any UV yellowing? Is there a brand you would recommend? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodieb8 Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 the s.sealer absorbs into wood bodies protecting wood and givesa great surface. foil can be placed over it. we recommend primer afters.s then base colors as most do. then the foils. normally a finish clear coat over the painted product.sanding sealer can be painted over with any paints without crazing, wrinkles etc.. remember you can put enamels over lacquer but not lacquers over enamels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 JMHO, I don't see any particular need to clearcoat raw foil before painting it. The only reason I would do it would be to hide the edges but you can burnish the edges of Venture Brite-Bak foil so they virtually disappear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crankpaint Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 i use sanding sealer over my wood baits and then foil over that then use a 400 grit sand paper on the edge of the foil to smooth it out works well for me then i paint and seal with acrilic clear out of a can, let it dry and top coat with e-tex??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Mac Posted December 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 i like having a clear down after foiling but before painting. I just like how the paint "pops" out from it. But, the part I really like is how much easier it is to paint. I don't have to worry about my paint running. Also, when I'm using a textured foil look, the paint will fill up the low spots (aka the scales pattern parts) for the lack of better words. Also, I trim my foil down the middle of the top and bottom. Same deal, paint tends to separate from the edges of the foil where I've cut... no matter how blended the foil edges look. Plus, by having a clear down it provides a protective coat on the foil until I'm ready to paint and final clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 I think the milky result with the acetone/propionate mixture is due to humidity. Acetone will absorb water, I think I remember. But it dissolves the plastic really well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Glenn Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 If I remember correctly from my wood working days, there is a big difference between the lacquer used in the wood industry and the type of lacquer used in the auto industry. Go for the auto type. Musky Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassthumbs Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 There is a difference from auto to millwork lacquers in the base of the product u.v. inhibitors,flex agents its endless and all kinds chemicals give durability to the elements a car will see. I'm currently using the M.L.Cambell Pre-cats,and thinned 20% even up 40% depending on the situation in the booths I'm in, on kitchen cabinets. Most of these pre-catylized laquers are self sealling (clears) but I prefer to always lay down 2 coats of sanding sealer but I'm locking in the stain color and giving myself some easy sanding without taking any color off. All that being said on wood baits I use a spraybomb of satin lacquer to seal the wood before testing and paint. Its easy fast and quick and no problem with paint adhesion and thats all I'm using it for is to seal the bait. I did a test with some waterbourne pre-cats. dipping the baits and allthough it worked lots of bubbles and longer set up. With lacquer always be careful with direct heat(hair dryrer heat gun) Not to mention all the other negative things.I have not done a foil over yet so can't say what would happen. if using lacquer keep in mind its a thin process its not going to work as high build or even out differences very well. Just my 2c Could try dipping in a quart of uncut pre-cat sanding sealer and see what happens just becareful on the film build. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassthumbs Posted December 27, 2011 Report Share Posted December 27, 2011 forgot to mention yes the LSS and solvent top coat products will amber and over time it will more so. With Dn as top coat you should be fine. With the LSS you could dip all day, just don't know what it would do to the foil. The waterbourne Lacquers go on white and cure crystal clear and have added uv resistance and durabillity, but harder to sand and apply. Will your DN not even out everything in the end. I'm using LSS-Creatix- Duplicolor Acrilyc Enaml Gloss In spray bomb and is working for me, but I'm only doing a few at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted December 28, 2011 Report Share Posted December 28, 2011 Might try some MEK. I use an ABS glue which is polystyrene and butadiene and is pre-dissolved in acetone and MEK. In a jar the stuff is milky white but when thinned out as a coating it is clear. I have tried strait PVC glue once on a bait just for fun. The thing still smells like pipe glue. I thought it would make a brilliant water sealer at the time. Sounds like you have perfected the idea. I was wondering if you are willing to share more about the ABS glue. Brand? Type? Are you thinning with mek and acetone? Vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sallystrothers Posted December 29, 2011 Report Share Posted December 29, 2011 I have tried strait PVC glue once on a bait just for fun. The thing still smells like pipe glue. I thought it would make a brilliant water sealer at the time. Sounds like you have perfected the idea. I was wondering if you are willing to share more about the ABS glue. Brand? Type? Are you thinning with mek and acetone? Vic The brand that worked best for me is Oatey All Purpose Cement and I got it at Lowes. I added about 50% cement, 35% MEK and 15% Acetone. You might want to thin it out even more if you are only using it as a sealer. The higher MEK to acetone ratio the slower the solidification of the coating. With pure acetone I was getting the stuff to harden in about 5 seconds after dipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sallystrothers Posted December 29, 2011 Report Share Posted December 29, 2011 Also should mention certain geometries delaminate because the polymer seeks the lowest energy configuration and contracts on itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sallystrothers Posted December 29, 2011 Report Share Posted December 29, 2011 I have never tried propionate but in my experience the biggest factor affecting the ability to dissolve is the average molecular weight of the polymer and they are not all the same from batch to batch or mfg to mfg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted December 29, 2011 Report Share Posted December 29, 2011 Thank you for sharing this information! i will give it a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sallystrothers Posted December 29, 2011 Report Share Posted December 29, 2011 I just had another idea for sealing wood, how about wood glue diluted with a little water? I have used wood glue as a sealer before and have been happy with the low toxicity, fast cure time, and ease of availability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nedyarb Posted December 29, 2011 Report Share Posted December 29, 2011 Is wood glue waterproof? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
