Cormorant Lures Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I haven't posted on the site since late last year so first off, hello again to all fellow TU members... It's mid-winter here in the great Upper Peninsula of Michigan, but soon sport shows and marketing opportunities will be coming my way... At this point in time, I am still hand-pouring my baits using two presto pots... I am thinking about exploring all the options I can to make my production time faster... I am wondering what everyone's take is on this subject... Is hand injection much quicker?!? Are there other options when it comes to table top injection machines other than Bear's?!? I am anticipating that this year is going to be explosive for me, and since my pouring time has become slightly more limited, I am trying to find all ways possible at making the time I have more productive... I am open to any and all suggestions!!! I know that many on here are willing to help out, so that is what I am asking for... Thank you!!! Cormorant Lures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHK Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 i find injection much faster, as you can fill multiple cavities at the same time. now as far as economical small bench top machines go, there is jacobs (looks ok, but limited to 1 colour, a 1 quart holding capacity and is held in a heated container) and Bears bench top, which cost significantly more than jacobs, but it is capable of 2 colour laminates, it looks to hold at least 3 gal in each "hopper" (2 hoppers) and uses 2 1.2lb heat exchangers to heat the plastic just before it hits the nozzle. Now you could contact Zorn Molds as well to see what they have to offer (i am waiting to hear from them) but get ready for their costs as these guys dont screw around (they supply some big companies injection equipment) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I have a Jacobs unit and love it. As said before it is only single color so laminates are out at least for now. But a little Birdie told me there will be a laminate machine out in the next few weeks. I was told it was built just needed to get painted up. Spike it is the one that is suposed to build it. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Cormorant, first off you need to consider exactly what your needs are and where would be the best place to put your money. SHK and Frank are right, Jacobs probably makes the most economical single color machine on the market right now. Bear's Baits also makes a machine that will do laminates, but I think at one time they were having trouble trying to pump salt. So this is something to keep in mind if you run a lot of salt in your baits. Lureworks has been working on a machine now for about 2 years, I do know a little more about this machine than I do about the others. Salt will absolutely be no problem in this machine, it will do solid colors, laminates and pulse laminates. Also this machine if full of safety devices to make it very user friendly. The cost will probably be double the cost of Bear's machine, but I think it's going to be a very good alternative to a Zorn machine, which is the best on the market right now. The only thing about a Zorn machine is you have to keep in mind the smallest amount of plastic you'll be able to work with is 5 gallons. You could have large scale production molds made for your product and have someone else to produce your product. My company along with several others provide these services, but keep in mind large scale production molds are also expensive. If you're going to do this right, there is no cheap way to go about this. The main thing is don't move too big too fast. This mistake is so easy to make, when you start trying to up your production. There's several guys on TU that make real good production doing hand injecting. The trick here is to have enough molds to keep production going. For instance if you had 10 molds, by the time you inject all 10 molds, you should be able to open up your first mold, demold a bait and reshoot it and repeat the cycle. This will definitely up your production, you just keep the rotation going until you get what you need. You can build a cooling table to lay your molds on because they will build up heat in a continuous rotation and too much heat will delay your production if you have to sit and wait on the baits to cool. SHK, when you ask for your Zorn quote be sure and tell Ray that you want the new type valves and the new type pumps. It'll add a little more expense to the machine, but it is very well worth it, and if you're going to spend over $30,000 what's another couple of thousand to make sure that you get the best. Also keep in mind, that there's only a handful of large injectors out there. It's a shame to say, but take my word for it, if you ever want to sell your machine unless you know an individual that's just dying to go into the plastic business, the resell value is only around $5000.00. Now don't get me wrong the machine is worth a whole lot more than that, but being the size of the market and the ones that are in business have been there a long time, they know that not everyone wants to purchase these machines. So they take advantage of you. Search the market for a used Zorn machine, I'm not sure if they're out there but it would be worth the look. Also keep in mind there is a huge learning curve with these machines. They can be temperamental. I have two, a hydraulic and a pneumatic. The hydraulic is a 3 color machine and the pneumatic is a 2 color machine. Even though they're both made basically the same, and the hydraulic machine I specified exactly how I wanted this machine set up and even though they're both set up the same, they are two different ladies with different personalities. You must be mechanically inclined and you must have a good knowledge of what plastic will and won't do. When I first started, I had no idea, exactly what I was getting into, when you go from hand pouring 20 oz to 2 gallons to injecting 5-10 gallons, mistakes are very costly. I make at least one $500 mistake every year. So instead of ordering your flake by the ounces you'll be ordering your flake by the 10 pounds. And plastic by the drums. The machine in only the starting cost. To set your facility up for the machine, to get the starting supplies for the machines is very very expensive, and this does not even consider the cost of the molds. With those costs, cheap is around $4000.00. Average is between $5000-$6000, and then if you want hook slots, two colored tails, or cross over laminates, your probably talking between $8000 and $10000 per mold. I just don't want you guys to do like I did, I was so keen in getting the machine that I did not take any of these things into consideration. My whole intention was to use my personal molds and produce my product only, by the time I got set up, and all supplies bought there was absolutely no money left for marketing. If I would have stuck to my plan, I would be out of business now. Now keep in mind, my first investment was a little more than $80,000.00 and I had nothing left for marketing, which is very very expensive in the fishing industry. So this will give you guys a little bit to think about. If any of you guys want to talk more about the high end production side of the business, you know I'll help you if I can. If someone needs to call me, PM me and I'll give you a couple of phone numbers. This industry is so hard and can be so cutthroat, if I can give any advice, I'll be glad to try to help you out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormorant Lures Posted January 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I would imagine that Bear probably has the "salt" kinks worked out of his machine by now... Is this a more recent problem?!? It seems as though Bear usually get's his issues figured out in a hurry!!! As far as the Jacob's unit is concerned, it looks like a very nice unit and the price is right... The only problem being, that for me personally, a two color machine is almost a MUST!!! Actually Mike, you are probably right... At this time, for me, a machine might be putting the cart before the horse... The only actual improvements I am looking to make are: #1 faster production, and #2 a way to make two color baits without using a mic... It seems as though you are telling me that both of these goals can be accomplished by using my presto pots with two hand injectors and a blending block, or a twinjector from Basstackle, correct?!? Of course the only issue being that I would have to revamp my mold collection to injection molds... How much time do you think I would gain from pouring directly from a presto pot, to using a hand injector method?!? In all reality, I LOVE my presto pots!!! They are a HUGE improvement for me when it comes to pouring from a mic... But still, it seems as though there must be other methods that take less time to accomplish my goal... At this time, I am only pouring one type of bait, and because of how much time it takes to pour so many color variations of the one type, it is hard for me to look at expanding into other baits like crawdads and such... I have so many different color variations and that's not including any two colored baits... I need to somehow speed up my process based on the limited amount of time I have to pour... If hand-injecting will GREATLY improve my pouring time, then I guess this is the next step I will take... If not, then other options will need to be considered... Thanks again!!! Cormorant Lures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHK Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 my quote is coming in for a small machine Mike, im not looking at a larger machine. im just really weighing my options right now. as far as Bears machine goes, they made some big changes to allow the use of heavier amounts of salt and regrinds. they are no longer pushing the plastic with air and have gone to pumps, that will recirculate the plastic not being used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Cormorant, I think hand injecting would probably up your production considerably. I understand what you're saying about the molds, but good aluminum molds last forever. Maybe need cleaning and repolishing every now and again, but that's about it as far as maintenance goes. There's some guys on TU that do a lot of production just by hand injection alone. With a little practice, laminates probably wouldn't be any trouble either. This is basically the route that I took before I bought my machines. I used to do a small crappie bait that had a reservoir at the top of the mold cavity. You would fill the reservoir with plastic and then take an aluminum plunger and actually manually push the plastic into the cavity of the mold. I made thousands this way. When I got my first multi-cavity mold I thought I was somebody. It turned out 25 a shot. The same baits now I make 201 every 30 seconds. Just remember if you use multi-cavity molds when you do your hand injection, they will take longer to cool than single cavity molds. It's just because you're turning them over so fast. SHK, I'm glad to hear ol' Bear got the salt problem completely figured out. I've seen his pump system, I've always wondered about flushing the system to go to a new color and how much material it takes to do this, some colors that I do can take up to 5 gallons to really clear it out of the plumbing and the pumps. Were you looking at Zorn's upright machine or the proto-shooter? A pneumatic machine like my small one in my opinion is one of the best machines Ray has ever produced. After we set it up with the new valves and bought a couple of bigger heat exchangers, it's turned out to be a great production machine. We have the new style pumps on the bigger hydraulic machine and they are great. The actual material cavity of the pump is very small so most colors can be flushed with a gallon or two of plastic. This saves on raw materials. When it comes to injection equipment, Zorn is definitely top of the line. By the way, I have tried to call Bear recently and hadn't been able to get in touch with him. Left him a message and haven't heard from him either. I hope he's doing well. A friend of mine that only lives about 20 minutes away bought one of Bear's machines but me or Bear neither one have heard from him since he bought it, so I really haven't got to hear a lot of feedback about the machine from the folks that have bought one. I seen some of the baits it made and it was very impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 One other word of advice too, if you're making a bait that's similar to a bait that is on the market and has a patent, before you have a mold made, get a copy of the patent. If it is a design function patent the main points of the baits will keep coming up all through the patent. Sometimes they can be almost impossible for the regular guy to read, but if you look over them and read over them pretty good, you can get an idea of the main things that are specified about the bait. The reason I'm telling you this is to tell you about my mistake. I made jig trailers for years, sold them on the open market. They were considerably different than Zoom's but they did have a ridge on the outside edge of the tails of the trailer. Remember I sold these for years on the open market. As soon as I spent $12000.00 having two molds made I received one of those sweet letters from Zoom's attorney informing me that the ridge on the tails of a jig trailer belongs to Zoom Bait Co. After some costs and a lot of aggravation, I found out that I was unknowingly guilty of patent infringement. I have two brand new production molds, one which has never had a bait made off of it, on the shelf in my shop and have been there for 3 years. This is an example of how the business works. Be careful, mistakes can be expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
