Clear Coat Problems

[overspray]

Very well written Overspray! Musky Glenn

Thanks!

[atlasstone]

This is really good info. I have just started to use clear coats for my baits, but I am still getting the "orange peel" look so I'm still trying to figure out what I am doing wrong. I've used both HVLP and airbrush methods with the same result so I'm wondering if I am either putting it on too thick, or I am not prepping the bait properly. THe clear that I have calls for 2 "medium wet" coats, but I'm not sure how to determine if I am doing that.

Can anyone elaborate on the steps they take to prep the bait for clear or if the secret is in prepping the bait for paint?

Also, I'd like to try the "PPG 2021 Ceramiclear" but I cannot seem to find an online resource that sells it. Does anyone have a good resource for that?

How about any thoughts on fish eye reducers?

Thanks!

[mark poulson]

If you're spraying, try thinner coats to begin with, to give good adhesion, and then a smooth coat. I would make a test piece first, so I didn't ruin a bait I'd taken forever (for me) to paint.

[RayburnGuy]

This is really good info. I have just started to use clear coats for my baits, but I am still getting the "orange peel" look so I'm still trying to figure out what I am doing wrong. I've used both HVLP and airbrush methods with the same result so I'm wondering if I am either putting it on too thick, or I am not prepping the bait properly. THe clear that I have calls for 2 "medium wet" coats, but I'm not sure how to determine if I am doing that.

Can anyone elaborate on the steps they take to prep the bait for clear or if the secret is in prepping the bait for paint?

Also, I'd like to try the "PPG 2021 Ceramiclear" but I cannot seem to find an online resource that sells it. Does anyone have a good resource for that?

How about any thoughts on fish eye reducers?

Thanks!

I would suggest going back and reading the posts in this thread by bladesandbaits and overspray. Actually it wouldn't hurt to read the whole thread. There is a lot of good info contained in this topic.

Ben

Edited March 10, 2012 by RayburnGuy

[Seeking 56]

What Ben said; get rid of the rattle can paint. Dip your baits to cut the time in base coating rather than using a rattle can otherwise mixing the two will cause you nothing but problems. Even with an epoxy top coat I suspect once the hook rash gets deep enough the baits will peel like an orange

@ Rayburn and gunnie 3035 Quote: " Even with an epoxy top coat I suspect once the hook rash gets deep enough the baits will peel like an orange"

I'm really curious about this statement ............

Are you saying epoxy as in etex for example, would not hold on rattlecan paint?

s54

[RayburnGuy]

It's not that the epoxy won't hold. I think what Gunnie was talking about is the incompatibility between some of the solvents in rattle cans and what is sprayed or brushed over, or under, them. Painting and top coating a lure is a step by step process and each step has to play nice with the other. Epoxy is more or less inert. Meaning it doesn't react with other substances. But if the top coat is breached (hook rash) and the underlying layers of paint aren't "playing nice" with each other then the whole paint job can peel off in chunks. That is from each coat of paint not bonding with the one under it. At least that's the way I understood Gunnie's statement.

For example I tried spraying my base coat with a rattle can paint one time. The paint was supposedly designed for painting plastic. There were no problems whatsoever with the paint job. Everything looked great until I went to clear coat with DN. As soon as the top coat was applied the whole paint job wrinkled. It was from the solvents in the rattle can paint reacting with the solvents in the DN. This is what I meant about everything having to "play nice" with each other. Very few of the products we use to paint baits were actually designed for that purpose and when we start mixing and matching different components we can sometimes end up with a disaster.

Ben

Edited March 10, 2012 by RayburnGuy

[Seeking 56]

Thanks RayburnGuy for explaining your situation.

Then, one of two things happened:

1) The paint wasn't fully cured causing the solvents to react.

2) Perhaps DN is not compatible with that brand of rattle can paint or rattle can paint in general.

Mixing two different brands of rattle cans will not necessarily react together 100% of the time. I ran out of Rustoleum black one time. I sprayed Krylon black over Rustoleum white just to have the Krylon black run right off the white. Prior to that, I used Krylon copper over Rustoleum black while doing a scale pattern and had no problems whatsoever.

It's been my experience that if rattle can paint adheres and it's fully cured, it's not coming off. Even if there are battle scars or hook rash. I have beaten up lures to prove it. I wait 2 weeks for the paint to cure before applying etex. Might be overkill but i've never had wrinkling or any other problems for that matter.

The only way for paint to come off wooden lures and I can attest to this since i've repainted numerous , is if the primer did not bond with the sealer or the wrong wood was used( swelled up ). My last 2 repaints were someone else's baits.....beautifully crafted / painted baits but the builders dropped the ball on the most critical part of lure building, the sealing / priming.

I'm not an expert but I thought i'd share my experiences with rattlecans. When I stop having fun with them I'll join the rest of you over to the dark side. LoL!!

s54

[RayburnGuy]

By using strictly rattle cans you probably run into fewer problems than someone who is mixing rattle can paints with airbrush paint. And using an epoxy top coat you probably run into fewer problems than someone who is using some type of urethane. That's what I was getting at when I was talking about all the components "playing nice" with each other. Some folks, including myself, have tried spraying a base coat from a rattle can because they are cheap and readily available. Now when you go to mixing different things on top of that rattle can base coat several things can happen and some of them aren't good. I'm no chemist, but I would think that different companies use different solvents in their lines of rattle can paints. Maybe even in the same brand, but with different colors as you mentioned. And there are a lot of them that don't always react to each other in a friendly manner.

Your probably doing a wise thing by waiting as long as you do before top coating although by using an epoxy you could probably cut that wait time down by quite a bit. But if that fits into your schedule then by no means would I try to suggest doing it differently. A lot of us aren't as patient as you though and we have worked out systems using different products and procedures that fit into the way we like to do things. That's one thing about this hobby that makes it so interesting. There are lots of ways to skin the proverbial cat and as long as your satisfied with the outcome then there isn't a thing wrong with the way you do it.

Ben

[atlasstone]

I would suggest going back and reading the posts in this thread by bladesandbaits and overspray. Actually it wouldn't hurt to read the whole thread. There is a lot of good info contained in this topic. Ben

I re-read this thread and although the information is extremely helpful, I was unable to find reference to my particular questions. I'm not sure if I am asking them in the wrong way or if I simply overlooked the answers.

I was looking to see if I should be focusing my attention more on preparing the painted bait for clear coat, or if I should pay more attention to preparing the bait for paint. After taking one of my baits to the local NAPA auto paint center, the associate told me that it looks like I need to focus on preparing the bait by roughing the surface slightly then cleaning it with alcohol, wiping it down with a tack cloth (low tack) then again with alcohol. After which, he recommended not touching the bait and avoiding any dust or dirt when I painted it. His final suggestion was to clear it as soon after the paint was cured in order to avoid similar issues with dust etc prior to clearing. I went ahead and picked up an adhesion promoter as well. I have yet to test out his suggestions so we'll see how it goes.

I saw one of the posts that had a link to 5star, but I wasn't able to find any of the PPG products there. I'm not sure why I can't find an online resource to purchase the PPG products mentioned in blades post, but if anyone has a good resource for it, I would appreciate it.

My last comment on my post was around the clear coat additives that I have seen reference on some of the auto painting sites called "fish eye reducer". I have seen the products, but I was wondering if anyone here had any experience with them. The general consensus elsewhere seems to be split as to whether they should be used or not, so I didn't know if this is something I should look at for our application. I didn't see any posts that said they used this type of product, other than the reducers to thin the clear, so I figured I could pose the question in case someone had tried this.

I apologize for any oversights on my part, but I hope this helps to clarify what I was looking for. I did not intend to ask anything that had already been addressed.

Thanks!

Edited March 15, 2012 by atlasstone

[RayburnGuy]

I could have misunderstood what it was you were asking. As far as what you should be paying more attention to that's kind of hard to answer as both prepping for paint and prepping for clear coat are important steps. But there's no need to go overboard on either one. When prepping my baits all I try to do is make sure I have the surface as smooth as possible (sanding) and free from oil and other contaminants. The first thing I do when getting ready to paint a lure is wash my hands with Dawn dish washing liquid in water as hot as I can stand it. This removes any oil from my hands in case, for whatever reason, I end up touching the bait while painting. And I have ended up touching the bait many times with no adverse reaction. You will know immediately if you have contaminated the lure surface with body oil as it will fish eye as soon as the next layer of paint goes on. I don't use any special additives or conditioners for my paint or clear coat. I use reducers to thin the paint to the consistency I like and will sometimes add a transparent base to make certain colors more transparent and that is it. I don't find a need to add anything at all to the clear coat. No thinners or "fish eye reducers" or anything like that.

The clear I'm using is not much thicker than water so I can't imagine reducing it. I've never used the adhesion promoters Like Bulldog because I've never seen a need to do so. The paint will stick just fine to a well prepped bait. (lightly sanded and clean) At one time I tried wiping my baits with denatured alcohol before paint and didn't like it because it doesn't evaporate quickly and can hide in places such as around line ties and hook hangers.Then when paint is sprayed over it it makes a mess of the paint job. I switched to something Mark Poulson told me he does. After the sanding is finished I give the bait a quick dip in clean acetone. Notice the words "quick" and "clean". The dip is more of an "in and out" type thing as the acetone is hot enough to melt plastic if left in too long. The quick dip will not only clean the bait by removing any oils, but will melt the tiny ridges left from sanding just enough to give you a nice smooth surface to paint on.

I hope this answers some of your questions. If not just holler back and we'll try again.

Ben

[atlasstone]

Hmmm...

That definitely gives me a few thing to try. I keep all my stuff set up and ready to go but I haven't been doing much in the way of prep. If I feel "inspired" I just kind of get after it. It sounds like I need to slow down and spend some more time on prepping the bait AND myself. I'll be sure to report back with my results.

Thanks so much!

[RayburnGuy]

Hmmm...

That definitely gives me a few thing to try. I keep all my stuff set up and ready to go but I haven't been doing much in the way of prep. If I feel "inspired" I just kind of get after it. It sounds like I need to slow down and spend some more time on prepping the bait AND myself. I'll be sure to report back with my results.

Thanks so much!

It's not so much that you need to "slow down", but that you need to work out a system that works and is easy for you. The way I, or anyone else for that matter, do things may not be exactly right for you. I took advice from a lot of different people and tried many different ways of doing things before I finally settled on a procedure that works for me. And there are a lot of people here at TU who are way better painters and builders than I will ever be, but thanks to them I can build and paint decent looking baits that catch fish. It's also something that can't be learned overnight. If your just starting out you will have your share of failures and mistakes, but each failure and mistake is a learning experience. And when you learn all the things NOT to do then all that is left is success.

good luck,

Ben

[mark poulson]

You can eliminate all hand oil contamination problems by wearing gloves. I use the blue nitrile gloves, and only wear one on my left hand, since I'm right handed and hold my airbrush in my right hand. The blue nitrile gloves are reusable, while the white latex gloves are more flimsy and don't last. The blue ones cost more, but last forever. When I pull my hand out it turns the glove inside out, and I just turn it back the right way before I put it on again. That way the painting side is inside when not in use, and stays cleaner.

I hold my cranks in my hand a lot when I paint, and I even use my gloved hand to act as a stencil when I want to keep the paint off the head and gill plate.

I hope this helps.

[RayburnGuy]

Your right Mark. I keep forgetting about gloves because I personally don't use them. My hands sweat so bad that it's not long before a plastic or latex glove is full of sweat and my hand feels like it's trapped in a gooey, nasty mess. Washing my hands in hot water and Dawn work well for me and I regularly handle baits during painting while doing things like stretching scale material over them or using stencils to paint eyes and such. Now my paint sessions usually don't last all that long as very seldom am I painting more than a couple baits at a time. No doubt if the painting sessions were longer my hands would eventually become oily again.

Ben