Cormorant Lures Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 It seems no matter what mold I am injecting, I am getting air bubble voids, incomplete injections, dents, dings, etc... I have tried hotter plastic, colder plastic, more pressure, less pressure, different types of plastic, YOU NAME IT I'VE TRIED IT!!! I am getting so sick and tired of opening up my molds and seeing a bait with bursted air bubbles all over the place, or opening up my molds and seeing that the feet of my frogs are hollow, half missing, have bursted air bubbles, or the claws of my craws are completely dented... Something is just not right!!! I have watch 20 or so videos on youtube, this forum, and other forums and have not seen anyone talk about all the major issues I am having... The videos make it look so easy... I have been injecting for months now and it seems I can NEVER get a break... It's just issue after issue... I want nice looking baits, I want baits that fishermen can look at and smile, I want baits like the ones you see on the shelves everyday... Not baits with dings, hollow feet, bursted air bubbles, dented craws, etc... I swear I still believe it is the injectors, if I had another one to compare them to, then at least I could rule them out or call them out as my problem... I have a VERY HARD time believing that it is my process of doing things... TRUST ME, with all the experimenting I have done, if I had found something that worked right almost 100% of the time, I would keep doing it!!! I am sorry for venting but I need to get this figured out... I am going to have tackle shops, stores, and Joe Fishermen calling me in the next few weeks and I feel as though I am stranded... I am at the point to ask and see if anyone has another injector I can borrow to test my theory?!? If not, I am willing to take all the advice I can get at this point... If I am wrong in saying that I am the only one who is having all these major issues, PLEASE let me know... I cannot even fathom that to many of you are having all sorts of the same problems as me, because if you did, you probably would have quit a long time ago... Problems like this would turn anyone's small plastics business into a complete disaster unless they are dealt with properly... Again, I am sorry for venting, but I need some desperate relief!!! PLEASE HELP!!! THANKS!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 I wish I knew enough to help you, but I don't. Sorry. Someone here surely will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferree Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 It seems a lot more information is needed. I have just started to inject and have noticed some air once in a while, but hotter plastic and a little more consistent pressure took care of it. The other thing we all need to help diagnose is the products you are using. What plastic, injector, colors etc... what are you using to heat and stir the plastic. This is somewhat like forensics where we have to know almost everything to get an ahha moment. Kenneth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobv Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 The only time I get an incomplete bait is if some air gets sucked in while pulling in the hot plastic. Usually when my cup is low. Are you using oil on the mold before you shoot, if so what kind. I've had some problems with some oils leaving small bubble looking dents in plastic. Usually shoot without any now or a little worm oil. I use Bears injector and have never had any issues that I didn't cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gone2long Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Are you in an area that is humid or wetter than normal? check to see if you have micro bubbles in your plastic they may not surface so you need to look closely if you suck them up in your injector they will accumulate when injected, meaning they will collect and become larger in your mold just a thought as I've read this before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 I think you gave enough info. My opinion is you need to start over.Back to basics. You have probably watched my videos and to me it is that easy. All my life I have been able to make things with tools and machines. In the time I have watched others struggle with what I thought was easy. Start over One mold and one injector Heat plastic set up ONE mold Fill the injector and shoot Let kool and demold When this become second nature add another mold Shoot one while the other one is cooling You will find that once you get a system down that works for you it too will be easy You will find a comfort zone with all of your tools and you too will have baits that you are pround of. If this procedure fails buy a plane ticket to CA and I will show you how it is done. But you will have to work all day on my stuff before you go. BACK TO BASICS Frank 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerworm Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 i really dont believe its the injector unless its an o-ring issue but they are cheap to replace or the boddy of the injector is egg shaped but then the plunger would be really stiff. i am leaning towards that it is just a learning curve. this is so easy but alot of people dont ever catch on its just a feel thing with working with injection but i started this years ago doing lizards in an open pour mold and it took about a couple hundred bad baits to get a bag of 10 now its a breeze its all just a feel for whats going on inside the mold and then dont think about it just do it...BTW this is not a bash just my observations over many years and trying to help people catch onto this some do some dont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Doing it more helps. I can actually get decent two color baits now by hand pouring an accent color, like blue, into my 2 piece POP mold, and then injecting the black. But I still goof up some. Fortunately, I'm making them for me, and the fish, and bass eat jigs with less than perfect trailers. Thank goodness!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 I've looked at a lot of the hand injected molds out there and often wondered with the ones with multi-cavities why hasn't there been more problems. The softer the plastic the more it will shrink no matter what you add to it, unless you make the plastic harder, so adding things like a lot of salt is not going to help that much. Looking at the molds that are out there, I'm wondering why there aren't more venting issues, and there seems to be a lot of plastic waste. So I thought I'd put up a picture of some venting that is done on a professionally made prototype. Also, I've got a picture of some of the baits still attached to the runner, this is to show you an example of what I mean when I say waste. Someone made a comment about not being able to hold a heavy amount of pressure but you'd be surprised how much pressure, you can exert with very little effort. I know this is not exactly answering your questions in any way. I think the venting may be some of the issues with the molds with mulit-cavities. My example is a single cavity and look how much it's vented. If you're catching air bubbles and there's no air in your injector, then it's nothing but a venting problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 Not real sure what a professional mold maker is. But I have some molds that dont have any venting at all and they shoot just fine. And at what point is there to much venting? Or does it really matter? The runner is way more what I have made when I ask for it to be done like that. I think it is a learning thing. I believe he went from hand pouring right into injecting multiple molds way to fast. Now he seams to be having some growing pains. Slow down and learn what will work for you. He is also worried about orders that are not there yet which adds to the frustration. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 Frank, I consider a professional mold maker as someone that can make a large scale production mold, that can do laminates from top to bottom or side to side or triple laminate or laminate with a different color tail or a two colored bait, one that does it for a living and makes them work and do what they're supposed to do. I agree with you 100% that there's a learning curve here but it seems all in all there's been a lot of posts by different people, some with a lot of experience, having these same problems that are recurring lately. In soft plastics I don't think there is such thing as too much venting, and remember the venting is only done on one side of the mold. I'm not sure what orders he's worried about, if it's a mold that he's waiting on, a little extra venting won't hurt. If it's an air bubble in the bait, and it's constantly forming in the same place, no matter how fast or how slow you go, no matter what plastic you use, then it is definitely a venting issue. Also Frank, I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about on the runner. Your molds may not be the way I've seen some of the other molds. The molds I'm referring to have like a 1/2" fill channel with what looks to be another sprue running off of it that is about 1/2" long before it actually gets to the bait cavity. On the picture, I took the baits off of the other side, that is just a piece of a big runner. There's actually 80 worms to the full runner, 40 on each side. I was just showing an example of how close I thought the bait should be to the main feed runner. I'm not sure if you're taking this wrong Frank, I'm not putting anyone's work down, but all of these are prototypes of large scale production molds, and I've never had one to fail, as many as I shoot. Remember that some of the vents in the picture are also just dump channels for the air, the main vents are the ones running every quarter inch down the bait. I've been at the same place that Cormorant is at and I can remember being desparate and trying everything I could, apparently he feels like he's over the learning curve or he's tried everything he can think of, so I'm just suggesting some other things to look at. It might not necessarily fix all of his problems, but it might help some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormorant Lures Posted April 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 Alright so here's the deal... I am using Lureworks Medium/Soft Pourasol... I use two of Bear's Presto Pots with stirring paddles... I am using two 6oz. injectors (Twinjector) from Bass Tackle... I do NOT use oil in my molds... All my other products: glitter, color, softener, stabilizer, etc. are from Lurecraft... The more and more I think about it, I believe (nope wrong word) I KNOW that I have MAJOR microbubble issues... I now do recall seeing them in my plastic while it's heated... How the heck do you get rid of them?!? I do NOT believe however that microbubbles are the main cause for my feet issues in my frogs... I DO believe that microbubbles however are the main issue for all the bursted bubbles I get on the rest of my baits... The "hollow" or "half-missing" feet in my frogs also happened when using Calhoun's plastic and possibly when using Caney Creeks plastic... When I first started injecting, I only had THREE single cavity frog molds... From the start, I injected one at a time and have always had issues with the d*mn feet on the frogs... One day I changed the o-ring, put a little plumbers tape underneath it and BAM, it was gone!!! All my hollow feet problems disappeared on my frogs... I think I poured almost 6 total batches of frogs without ONE BAD FOOT!!! I have had to change the o-ring since it got dinged up from the locking pin slot... Now I cannot get it to pour a good frog again to save my life... I tried BOTH injectors this morning and neither one could get the job done... Bursted bubbles all over the frog bodies and hollow and half-missing feet all over the place... I have never had problems with missing claws, legs, wings and/or tails on my brush hogs and craws... Just bursted microbubbles on the bodies of each and dents in the claws of my craws... The dents in my craw claws piss me off too!!! Nothing but a headache... Sometimes I wish I would have just bought (2) cavity craw molds instead of the (4) cavity molds... Maybe the dents in my craw claws are a venting issue?!? It sucks everytime I open up one of the craw molds, I know to expect that at least one of them are going to have a dented claw... To me, it's unacceptable... As far as the orders I am worried about, I am talking about all the bait and tackle shops I have been visiting lately and all the local tournament fishermen that are interested in my stuff... I have them all lined up and a good majority of them are going to be calling me around May 1st looking for product... I am trying to get ahead a little on inventory to lessen the initial blow from all of them calling around the same time... It's just that when my plastic, equipment and/or processes are beginning to fail me, I am getting worried!!! I want to be able to produce NICE LOOKING baits ALL THE TIME!!! I should have no problem achieving this goal, but for some reason my plastic microbubbles like an S.O.B. and I think my injectors are on the fritz!!! BTW, one of the injector nozzles seems way more "snug" than the other... I dunno... Thank you for all the replys!!! At least I know you guys won't leave me hangin'!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wchilton Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 I'd also suggest working with one mold at a time. Plastic that is too hot will shrink a lot and that's what causes "dents". Plastic that is too cool, mold that is too cool, or injecting too slow can result in incomplete filling of the mold because the plastic solidifies before it can fill the small appendages. You may need slightly different temps or technique for your craw mold than for your frog mold...so that's why I'd say work with one at a time. You can heat a mold on a hot plate or skillet to help it fill better. If I do that and get the mold too hot I get a lot of flashing so think in terms of pretty warm but not too hot to touch for warming up a mold. A few rounds of injection will also warm up a mold. I also pre-heat the injector so that plastic doesn't cool too fast inside it. Last thing is your method of heating the plastic. If it's not well stirred when you pull it into the injector then no telling what temperature you're actually working with. My first time injecting I heated the plastic in a large pyrex bowl/cup on top of a skillet and it was pretty tricky maintaining temperature with that new (to me) set-up. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonteSS Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) I have a bears injector you can borrow for like a week. That is the one I used ALL the time. I have a small twinjector you can also use. I used it once and didnt love it. Didnt seem to suck up the plastic very well and sucked air I consider the basstackle injectors more like a caddilac. Beautifully made and heavy duty. The Bears/Caney Creek are more like light agile sports cars. Just be careful since the tips dont lock on. Let me know...Bill Edited April 21, 2012 by MonteSS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSC Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 There is only one other thing that I see that you might be doing and that is picking up air when you load your injector. Take it off of the very bottom of the pot ... Are you sucking in some ejecting then filling the injector? If so you may be injecting air into the pot then picking up an air pocket when refilling ... I have had that to happen to me several times ... Pre heating the injector can help ... I do this by laying it across the top of the pot while stripping molds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonteSS Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 ...Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 Frank, I consider a professional mold maker as someone that can make a large scale production mold, that can do laminates from top to bottom or side to side or triple laminate or laminate with a different color tail or a two colored bait, one that does it for a living and makes them work and do what they're supposed to do. I agree with you 100% that there's a learning curve here but it seems all in all there's been a lot of posts by different people, some with a lot of experience, having these same problems that are recurring lately. In soft plastics I don't think there is such thing as too much venting, and remember the venting is only done on one side of the mold. I'm not sure what orders he's worried about, if it's a mold that he's waiting on, a little extra venting won't hurt. If it's an air bubble in the bait, and it's constantly forming in the same place, no matter how fast or how slow you go, no matter what plastic you use, then it is definitely a venting issue. Also Frank, I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about on the runner. Your molds may not be the way I've seen some of the other molds. The molds I'm referring to have like a 1/2" fill channel with what looks to be another sprue running off of it that is about 1/2" long before it actually gets to the bait cavity. On the picture, I took the baits off of the other side, that is just a piece of a big runner. There's actually 80 worms to the full runner, 40 on each side. I was just showing an example of how close I thought the bait should be to the main feed runner. I'm not sure if you're taking this wrong Frank, I'm not putting anyone's work down, but all of these are prototypes of large scale production molds, and I've never had one to fail, as many as I shoot. Remember that some of the vents in the picture are also just dump channels for the air, the main vents are the ones running every quarter inch down the bait. I've been at the same place that Cormorant is at and I can remember being desparate and trying everything I could, apparently he feels like he's over the learning curve or he's tried everything he can think of, so I'm just suggesting some other things to look at. It might not necessarily fix all of his problems, but it might help some. I know you are talking about the mold makers you deal with but my point is venting is an issue that is a problem for some and not others. The mold maker I am refering to does do it for a living and has for a very long time. Out of respect for my customer and his design I will not post a pic of the many molds I am talking about but believe me they dont have vents. I know most of the molds that are pictured have a large sprue/runner but I ask if they can be reduced. I think you are talking about the distance between the sprue and the bait which in some molds can be long. I have the same mold as he does and actually the Twinjector was one I sold him, I used it and had no problem. He did change the orings and I did pm him and asked if they were bad when I sent him the unit. He said no big deal so I thought it was good. Alot of people want to say it is a product issue but I trully believe it is a learning issue. The only time I get the results he is getting is when I change the way I do things. I never use the last of the plastic in the injector, i just get as close as I can. I dont pulse the injector to preheat it. If I am doing large orders I leave the injectors in the presto pots so I have less remelts from the injector. I have marks on my injectors so I know when I am close to the end. I learn my molds and know when they are full by feel. If it is soft and springy it has an issue inside.You dont need to open them to know there is a bubble. Just what I learned from actually doing it. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormorant Lures Posted April 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 So far today I have found that by keeping the o-rings and injector well lubricated it seems to be helping... No hollow or half-missing feet in my frogs today so that's a plus... Still having MAJOR microbubble issues... I am pouring out of my basement... I am pretty sure, if not almost 100% sure I am greatly attributing towards my microbubble issues... All the previous plastics I have purchased have either already been placed in a sealed container or have been transferred to one by me... With the Lureworks Plastisol however, I have read all the so-called HORROR stories about hard-packing... So I have been keeping it in a 5-gallon bucket mostly with the lid just sitting on the top and NOT SEALED... I can imagine I have been inducing moisture into the plastic by storing it this way... I would really like to transfer it to a container with a pouring spout, but I am kind of at odds with how I would stir it... I have a paint mixer that attaches to my power drill, but it will not fit in the opening... I have read on one of my previous posts about other homeade stirring units, just not sure what to use and how often you truly need to stir the stuff... I am beginning to shy away from the fact that I first believed my injectors were on the fritz... Lubricating them after 5 shots or so had helped out tremendously... They still might be a contributing factor and have not been completely ruled out... But I now know that microbubbles are an issue I need to address first... Once the microbubble issues are taken care of, if there are other problems that remain or manifest I will know that it is NOT microbubbles that are the cause... Oh yeah and Frank, I know you did not sell me a bad product... Odds are says I have just been making rookie mistakes since the beginning... I trust you a long with a lot of the other veterans on this site and others... Your a great guy and have loads of experience... I can only wish that someday I will be in the same caliber with you and the others... Now fight nice children... LOL!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHK Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 So far today I have found that by keeping the o-rings and injector well lubricated it seems to be helping... No hollow or half-missing feet in my frogs today so that's a plus... Still having MAJOR microbubble issues... I am pouring out of my basement... I am pretty sure, if not almost 100% sure I am greatly attributing towards my microbubble issues... All the previous plastics I have purchased have either already been placed in a sealed container or have been transferred to one by me... With the Lureworks Plastisol however, I have read all the so-called HORROR stories about hard-packing... So I have been keeping it in a 5-gallon bucket mostly with the lid just sitting on the top and NOT SEALED... I can imagine I have been inducing moisture into the plastic by storing it this way... I would really like to transfer it to a container with a pouring spout, but I am kind of at odds with how I would stir it... I have a paint mixer that attaches to my power drill, but it will not fit in the opening... I have read on one of my previous posts about other homeade stirring units, just not sure what to use and how often you truly need to stir the stuff... I am beginning to shy away from the fact that I first believed my injectors were on the fritz... Lubricating them after 5 shots or so had helped out tremendously... They still might be a contributing factor and have not been completely ruled out... But I now know that microbubbles are an issue I need to address first... Once the microbubble issues are taken care of, if there are other problems that remain or manifest I will know that it is NOT microbubbles that are the cause... Oh yeah and Frank, I know you did not sell me a bad product... Odds are says I have just been making rookie mistakes since the beginning... I trust you a long with a lot of the other veterans on this site and others... Your a great guy and have loads of experience... I can only wish that someday I will be in the same caliber with you and the others... Now fight nice children... LOL!!! posting a couple pictures would help greatly to determin the root issue and proper action to take. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cormorant Lures Posted April 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) So I finally think I've got this Pourasol down to a science and at least I know I've got the 3.5" Croaker molds figured out... First off the plastic: I heated up my plastic like normal in my presto pot... Before shooting my first set of molds, I shut off the stirring mechanism and let all the microbubbles rise to the top... Now thanks to one of the posts I read in either this forum or another forum, I lit my blow torch and watched all the microbubbles burst on the surface... Again, THANK YOU to whoever came up with this little trick, it is probably the coolest and easiest idea I have used to date!!! Watching all those microbubbles burst was like a release of BAD CARMA!!! I also thought of a new storage vessel tonight while at my grandparents house... I was sitting on the couch and picked up a local Menard's ad and there IT was on the back page... One of those rubbemaid water coolers like you use for camping and such... It's perfect for my purpose, it can hold 5 gallons of plastic, it has a really nice pouring spout, and the top comes on and off with ease and allows for me to easily use my paint mixer when necessary... So it seems that the Lureworks Pourasol is finally becoming user friendly for this novice bait maker... Now to the molds: I am also going to include a little updated information on my injector situation as well... It seems that lubrication is the key for a happy injector... My o-rings seem to be doing just fine as long as they stay lubricated with a little bit of worm oil... Now last night it seemed as though I thought I had my mold and injector situation under control... I guess I thought that WAY to soon... Things went south quickly and I thought it was going to be another rough night in the laboratory... But I took the advice that many have given me and I decided I needed to figure out what I was doing wrong... Inject to fast and the feet filled up correctly but I was having problems with air pockets around the eye sockets... Inject to slow and the air pockets around the eye sockets disappear but the feet did not fill up correctly... Soon after experimenting with both fast and slow injection rates, I began to incorporate BOTH and found that it worked PERFECTLY EVERYTIME!!! So it boils down to this: There is about a 1/2" or so of injecting that is involved with a 3.5" Croaker mold... I found that if I inject the first 3/8" really slow and the last 1/8" super fast, not only do the voids around the eye sockets disappear but so do the feet problems!!! I have now shot 2 1/2 presto pots full of frogs and have only had about 4 total bad ones out of the 150 or so that I injected... Pretty darn good success rate if I say so myself... I haven't done any recent injecting with my craw molds... I would like to get the claw dent situation figured out as well... Hopefully if I can use the same type of diagnosing techniques I used for the frog molds, I can get rid of those pesky dents... THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL WHO HAVE CONTRIBUTED!!! Edited April 23, 2012 by Cormorant Lures 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerworm Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) like i said its not how its done that matters its what works for each individual and that its a feel not a process. people will tell you that each mold shoots differently (but my wife can do this as well) we can take both of our 60" bar clamps and put all of our molds on the table minus the senko molds and shoot all of them at the same time right down the row and never miss a beat and dont change from one mold to the other either just inject and go. oh and BTW we start each session with 4-5 drops of worm oil in each large injector and they dont get anymore until the next session which may be the next day or a couple of days later. dont be mislead into thinking they need to be dripping with oil everytime you use them the high temp o-rings do not require that much lubrication as they become more pliable when kept warm. and no im not saying warm it ahead of time use it cold from the get go ....suck it up...purge suck it up ....purge ....suck it up and go!!! works everytime!! Edited April 23, 2012 by powerworm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassun Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 While I may not add any value to finding the resolution, I am very glad to see this issue being chronicled the way it is. I am still researching and learning all I can before I even make a first attempt at pouring, I know I will have the same rookie mistakes as many people have; but seeing how people diagnose problems, utilize unique methods to solve them, etc. should help me (and any other rookies) think about our methods and hopefully ammend them quickly and learn the art of the pour. I hate to oversimplify the process, but from afar it sounds very simple and as long as one is consistent once they figure out their technique, pouring worms should be a realitively easy process. From all accounts, it does seem that people should start with hand pours and master that technique first. That makes perfect sense as you can actually see what is happening...shrinkage, bubbles, cooling times, etc. Something that I've not noticed suggested often is logging the process. IE Noting what mixes give what colors, how different color flakes modify the color, differences in elasticity based on "softness" or saltyness. I know there are some posted recepies but I was expecting this to be a recurring theme... Track your success's and failures. Anywho - I just wanted to thank everyone for thier input and sharing tips to help flatten the learning curve. I'm sure it's appreciated more than you know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass-Boys Posted April 26, 2012 Report Share Posted April 26, 2012 While I may not add any value to finding the resolution, I am very glad to see this issue being chronicled the way it is. I am still researching and learning all I can before I even make a first attempt at pouring, I know I will have the same rookie mistakes as many people have; but seeing how people diagnose problems, utilize unique methods to solve them, etc. should help me (and any other rookies) think about our methods and hopefully ammend them quickly and learn the art of the pour. I hate to oversimplify the process, but from afar it sounds very simple and as long as one is consistent once they figure out their technique, pouring worms should be a realitively easy process. From all accounts, it does seem that people should start with hand pours and master that technique first. That makes perfect sense as you can actually see what is happening...shrinkage, bubbles, cooling times, etc. Something that I've not noticed suggested often is logging the process. IE Noting what mixes give what colors, how different color flakes modify the color, differences in elasticity based on "softness" or saltyness. I know there are some posted recepies but I was expecting this to be a recurring theme... Track your success's and failures. Anywho - I just wanted to thank everyone for thier input and sharing tips to help flatten the learning curve. I'm sure it's appreciated more than you know... I am sure most of us have our own log books or recipe book. I have tons of notes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Posted April 26, 2012 Report Share Posted April 26, 2012 try using vegtable oil for lubrication.Also check the speed of the stirer on your presto pot. The faster the speed, the more likly you are to get air bubbles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted April 27, 2012 Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 Bob, you're not only disagreeing with me on the venting, but you're also disagreeing with companies like Zorn Molds and D&L Molds. Both are very large companies with several employees who specialize specifically in large scale production molds for the soft plastic industry. And what you're talking about is simple plastic shrinkage and has nothing to do with venting. That's the reason people have to keep topping off their molds because as the plastic cools it shrinks but the sides of the baits are formed instantly. If you have a cool mold and you shoot the bait and instantly demold it just as fast as you can, you'll find the outside of the bait has formed, therefore it has solidified, not being able to pull from the vents, it has to pull from the opening that's still hot at the end of the sprue. The softer the plastic, the thicker the bait, the worse the dent will be because the softer the plastic, the more it shrinks. These all are definitely facts, and you can ask any large producer of plastic in the industry. Time, temperature and pressure are the 3 keys to making a quality product and considering I've made and sold well over a million pieces last year I do know a little bit about this. But it sounds like shrinkage was only part of his problem. Also every one of my molds are water cooled and I have no issues and there is definitely no safety problems. When in production, our molds don't run over 70 degrees. Bob, I've had my fair share of denting problems, one of the bluegill bodies that I make was a severe denter, no matter how much pressure, or time I gave it, I still had a dent the size of the end of your finger, and when I talk about pressure, my small press has 8000 lbs of closing force and I've parted it a couple of times. But when I changed from a medium to a medium hard plastisol, the problem stopped. The harder the plastic the less shrinkage. If what you're saying is true, then why doesn't an open hand pour mold have a severe shrinkage dimple? It is capable of drawing as much air as it wants. An open pour mold shrinks from the top down, it doesn't draw bubbles out of the air into the plastic, it just shrinks. And you don't get dimples on the side of the bait, just at the top. This is because that is the hottest point for shrinkage to take place. The sides of the bait form immediately. Bob I've never seen a bait that couldn't be vented in a certain spot. Like I've said before, from nose to tail, the standard is venting every 1/4 inch on both sides of the bait. There does have to be deeper dump channels, to make sure the air has plenty of room to escape once vented, and sometimes, these deeper channels have holes in them to let the air escape completely from the mold, but no plastic goes into the vents whatsoever. There are no holes to clean out. And as far as say the legs of the bait not filling out, it could be a venting issue, but it could very well be a freeze off issue also. In other words, the plastic is cooling before it reaches the bottom of the caivity. Now if you have a large bubble void, that looks like a bubble has popped, or if you have a large bubble in the bait and you're absolutely sure there was no bubble in the plastic, then it's definitely a venting problem and can be nothing else but. And as far as gravity goes, all large scale production molds are standardly shot from the bottom up, so gravity really has no play in pushing the air out. Sufficient venting is a must. The only exception to this rule that I know of in large scale production is pie molds that lay flat and shoot from the side. This technique does not work with some baits because you can't get the air out of them. As far as the sprues go, I've made a rough drawing of the ones I was talking about and have an arrow drawn to it where I feel like the sprue is too long and causing a problem. Also on this same drawing, I've circled the spot that I don't understand why moldmakers don't vent. Almost all of the hand injected molds I've seen don't apprear to have a vent at the end of the sprue. So instead of getting the plastic as fast as possible into the mold, you have to force the air through each cavity. All of my runners or sprues, are vented to allow maximum delivery of the hot plastic. Not all molds are made like the one I'm talking about, but the ones that are made like this make it impossible to hold any amount of pressure because the sprue is freezing off before the bait preventing actual pressure to the cavity. Therefore, causing a shrinkage dimple. I've also drawn down below that one, the way to me it would be obvious to do a mold in order to keep adequate pressure to relieve some venting problems. I've seen several molds that are being done this way. But if your bait immediately branches off of the main runner, then you should have no reason for a heat sink. You would use less material, the mold maker would use less material and the production would be faster because you're delivering the plastic almost directly into the bait cavity. Probably not that much faster, but faster all the same. I mentioned that my biggest runner was 3/8", I did fail to mention that my smallest one is 3/16" and you're absolutely right Bob, this is a very forgiving mold. 200 baits have a turn around time of around 40 seconds and they absolutely never dent. But the smaller the bait, the more pressure I can put to it. If I try to shoot a larger bait with the same pressure that I shoot the smaller bait it would actually part the press and flash terribly, and I talking about the press with 15000 lbs of closing force. I'm far from a big time bait maker but I am lucky enough to be able to do this for a living but remember I'm only about 5 years into this end of it, there's 9 years plus of hand pouring and hand injecting and a lot of this work was done before hand injection was ever a standard. The small bait up there that I just mentioned I used to produce by pouring hot plastic into a reservoir at the top of the mold and taking an aluminum plunger and forcing the plastic down into the cavities. We made thousands and thousands this way. Imagine my shock the first time I ran the production mold. I agree with you, some people don't have any trouble but it seems like this issue is coming up a lot here lately. Truthfully I think between me and you the softness of the material has a lot to do with it. A lot of the more experienced pourers after buying their plastisol still kind of do their own things and mix their own formulas working out these problems. As far as dents from major companies go, I got a pack of the Z company's the other day, to do a color match for a customer, every bait was severely dented and I mean severely dented and not in the thickest part of the bait either but actually at the hook point of the bait. And it's real obvious to tell by the shape of these dents and the severity of them, that they definitely have a pressure problem. And as far as lizards go, they are almost impossible not to have some sort of dent. For some reason, the belly of a lizard just wants to cave in. I don't have that problem myself, but lizards are one of the worst to dent along with stick baits. And to make sure that I haven't given any wrong information because this is something I would never knowingly do, I called one of the higher ups today before I posted to make sure I was correct on what I was saying and they assured me I was 100% accurate. And yes these folks are big time in the industry. Real big. Cormorant the only thing I can add if you're getting microbubbles in the bait then they are being drawn in from the injector, if there's no microbubbles in the plastic when you pull it up in the injector, then there should be no microbubbles in the bait. But like I said, there's 3 main variables to producing good products in soft plastics, time, temperature and pressure. Any bad baits can always be attributed to one of these factors. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
