bluetickhound Posted June 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 BTH What are you sealing the wood with? I had some problems with this early one. I was not letting the wood sealer or my base coat dry. I was dipping lures with multiple coats upon one another to hide imperfections. Bad idea. Now I wait 24 hours between all coats. Also was told by another balsa lure builder that several of his baits did what you describe. He traced the problem to high humidity. The wood itself was acting like a sponge. He now only seals his baits in the morning while the humidity is at it's lowest point and the problem went away. He told me what he considered a safe humidity range but i have since forgotten. I'm sealing (and topcoating) with D2T. Here in Georgia there really is not much relief from humidity... I do most of my work in a garage shop however and all my supplies stay there. I probably need to start storing my wood inside along with my D2T... I hadn't considered that until you mentioned it. BTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Welllll once I was cleaning my boat and had taken my plano boxes of baits out and put them on the sidewalk in the hot sun. They were there for several hours and when I opened them up I had one bait that had done the same thing. The finish had cracked and was peeling. The bait itself was warped. The bait was a plastic bait (Cordell I think) that I had repainted with acrylics and topcoated with DK2. Not wood. Any thoughts on that? Not had it happen keeping baits in my hot compartments during the summer?? On a plastic bait the air trapped inside the bait can expand as it becomes heated. This, coupled with the softening of the heated plastic, can cause baits to deform. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Glenn Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 Most of the trouble I have with plastic lures swelling happens to Bill Norman and Believers. But I have had it happen to several other lures also. Being inside a tackle box like the double sided clear boxes caused most of my problem. Not had any problems just from being in the sun. Mine have always been inclosed in a clear or amber colored plastic box and laying in the direct sun. Killer!!! Musky Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 If humid air trapped in a balsa bait is a problem, try hitting the bare wood bait hard with a hair dryer before you start painting, to drive out the humid air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) I've given this some thought before Mark although I've never tried it. Even mentioned it in an old thread somewhere. To my way of thinking you'd have to get the bait sealed before it started cooling off and drawing air/moisture back into the wood. It just wasn't worth the extra trouble for me to try it. Ben Edited June 30, 2012 by RayburnGuy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluetickhound Posted June 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 I just went ahead and brought all my wood and epoxy inside so it wouldn't be in an environment I had no control over. I may bring my paint in also... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 A short 1 min trip trip through the microwave would virtually guarantee no moisture was left in a piece of wood before one seals it . Though honestly, I never do it myself unless the wood I am working with is known to be wet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Glenn Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Most moisture goes in and out through the end grain, that is why they put wax/paint on the ends of hardwood lumber. (This is usually done my the consumer) For air drying lumber which is how most of us do it with lumber, takes approx. 1 year per 1 inch of thickness. You want the moisture to leave through the sides and edges and not the end grain. If it leaves through the end grain, that end will shrink faster than the rest and cause a crack from the end toward the middle of the board. All that being said, I doubt that one minute in a microwave oven will make that much difference in true moisture content. It would not be the first time I was way wrong. Average moisture content for a location varies greatly. Here in NC we are usually around 12-16 percent air moisture content. This would be the moisture content of true air dried wood. Dry kiln lumber is usually around 6-8 percent moisture content. This will change quickly as it is stored in our 12-16 percent out door air. Moisture control was the largest problem we had in a school shop setting. It will change the size of lumber. A 2X4 eight feet long can hold as much as three gallons of water. That would be about 100 percent moisture content. As it dries down to 27 percent there is minimal shrinking as the water leaves the cell cavity only. After approx. 27 percent on down shrinking happens as the wood is loosing water in the cell walls which causes all our warping, bowing, twisting, splitting and all those other things that drive us nuts! Time out. Musky Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickdraw Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 My comments on this are not necessarily directed at the fact that the finish bubbled, but instead more of a general comment on the bond of the clear coat to the paint... When I first started building, I used to use primer on the bare wood. The primer seem to be the weak link in the bonding process and on a few baits I had some 'delamination' where the finish and paint separated from the bait, at the primer level. I stopped using primer and instead began sealing the baits with sanding sealer, then a thin coat of clear (followed by a bit of light wet-sanding) and then I put down a coat of white paint, not primer, as a basecoat. I then paint and finished the bait as per usual. The wet-sanded clear coat seems to provide a much, much stronger base upon which to build paint layers compared to the somewhat chalky primers that are commercially available. I have had zero problems with delamination ever since. This is exactly the same process I went through from having paint delaminate at the primer on up. I use a 1 part epoxy (Top Secret Coatings) to seal my wood after all of the cutting and drilling is done and spray with Rustolium flat enamal white to get the base coat color. I always let the sealer and primer dry for 24hrs each before painting just to let it bry and any residual fumes cook off. Now everything sticks to the previous coat very well and I have had zero problems like before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 (edited) I hate to sound like a broken record, but almost all of these problems go away when you build with AZEK PVC trimboard. I am a carpenter, and love working with wood, but I'll never go back to wood for building lures. The waterbased paint over PVC will bubble if overheated, but I think it is from the solvent in the PVC, not from the paint, and it is minimal. The way the bubbles show themselves is almost as though the PVC has grain, because it is where the lure hasn't been sanded smooth enough, and it's always on the sides, not the top or bottom. The bubbles are easily popped with an exacto knife, and the water-based urethane I use, SC 9000, seems to bond to the Createx really well, and draw out any water that might not have dried. And the popped bubbles aren't an issue in terms of the finished paint scheme. Once I've dipped three times in the SC9000, the lures are as close to bulletproof as any bass lure needs to be. I've fished these lure for several years now, and never had a paint or topcoat failure from fishing. The only problem I've had is when I've soaked a lure overnight in water, or left it for several days on a wet deck carpet, which had cause the finish to soften. Even then, a hair dryer quickly restores the finish to hard and beautiful. I'm sure DN's original urethane would perform equally as well, if not better. Edited July 1, 2012 by mark poulson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 (edited) Most moisture goes in and out through the end grain, that is why they put wax/paint on the ends of hardwood lumber. (This is usually done my the consumer) For air drying lumber which is how most of us do it with lumber, takes approx. 1 year per 1 inch of thickness. You want the moisture to leave through the sides and edges and not the end grain. If it leaves through the end grain, that end will shrink faster than the rest and cause a crack from the end toward the middle of the board. All that being said, I doubt that one minute in a microwave oven will make that much difference in true moisture content. It would not be the first time I was way wrong. Average moisture content for a location varies greatly. Here in NC we are usually around 12-16 percent air moisture content. This would be the moisture content of true air dried wood. Dry kiln lumber is usually around 6-8 percent moisture content. This will change quickly as it is stored in our 12-16 percent out door air. Moisture control was the largest problem we had in a school shop setting. It will change the size of lumber. A 2X4 eight feet long can hold as much as three gallons of water. That would be about 100 percent moisture content. As it dries down to 27 percent there is minimal shrinking as the water leaves the cell cavity only. After approx. 27 percent on down shrinking happens as the wood is loosing water in the cell walls which causes all our warping, bowing, twisting, splitting and all those other things that drive us nuts! Time out. Musky Glenn Musky Glenn, I would not say your wrong but the dry time will vary greatly with the size of the piece, type of wood and exactly how wet is it. As a southerner , I am naturally prone to exaggeration . Please forgive me. Here is a link describing the microwave drying method for wood I am referring to for those interested. http://www3.sympatico.ca/3jdw8/microwavedrying.htm When working with wood from the yard, I sometimes finds this a useful. LR Edited July 1, 2012 by littleriver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 (edited) I am guessing that the small pieces of wood we use for lures can be dried a lot faster than the 2X material we use in construction. And the balsa we build with is already kiln dried. In thinking about it more, I'm wondering if it's just the trapped air being heated and expanding, causing the bubbling. Or maybe there is enough of a difference in the coefficients of thermal expansion between the wood and the top coat to cause a loss of bonding and allow any air that's heated to expand and make bubbles. Or maybe it's Martians, or Gremlins, or tapeworms, or too many beans while you're buiding??? Hahaha Seriously, I think sealing the balsa well with a strong sealer, like crazy glue or epoxy, should stop the bubbling, because the sealer will be locked into the grain and pores of the raw wood. Just putting a primer onto raw wood, especially a water based primer, is just a surface application, with a weak bond to the wood. Edited July 1, 2012 by mark poulson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Glenn Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Littleriver, We are all just trying to understand what takes place with a problem. Your suggestions are well taken and I appreciate reading all you write. The only experience with microwaves I could relate that to was what had happened to my frozen dinner after one minute, not much. That was a good article about microwaving wood. One sentance he used caught my eye. " 3/4 inch thick wood requires about 15 minutes simmer time in my microwave.". It is hard to understand the emotions a person has when we are reading typed words. I never mean to offend anyone who is trying to help me understand a problem. Thanks for your help. Musky Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Mark , I initially thought it was a weak seal coat. But BTH says he is sealing with epoxy. That would make one think the problem may be in the paint between the layers of epoxy. Personally experienced bubble back baits with a variety of woods, before I stopped making the same mistake(thick coats of paint and sealer with inadequate dry time) LOL. Musky Glenn, No worries mate. No offense taken. Thank you for all you share. I have bought many cedar bricks and had no idea what the wax on the end was for till your post. Thank you! My first post was less than informative and even misleading. But the microwave is a good fairly quick way to remove water from wood. I have even heard of folks storing their lumber in the attic space of their home to dry faster. LR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluetickhound Posted July 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Mark , I initially thought it was a weak seal coat. But BTH says he is sealing with epoxy. That would make one think the problem may be in the paint between the layers of epoxy. Personally experienced bubble back baits with a variety of woods, before I stopped making the same mistake(thick coats of paint and sealer with inadequate dry time) LOL. LR LR, After having more time to consider all of everyones replies I think this is the crux of my problem. The sealer coat of D2T gets 24 plus hours to set up but when painting I think I've been getting in a bit of a hurry when it comes to my painting. I have been spraying multiple coats of the superhide white but even with the hair dryer I just don't think I'm giving the layers enough time to really dry before moving on to the finish coats and epoxy topcoat. When I examined the chips from what I was able to peel off of the damaged lure I see that the delamination occurs at the superhide white level. I'm still skittish about leaving my lures in direct sunlight but I'm almost tempted to try an experiment. Spray one lure like I did the damaged one and another with plenty of dry time in between coats and see if it makes the difference I'm pretty sure it will make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluetickhound Posted July 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 As an aside... What is the general consensus as to dipping finished balsa lures in DN S81 as a topcoat? I know the issue with humidity and being cautious not to let runoff drip back into the main container as well as the necessity of keeping main container open time to an absolute minimum but my question is this... does DN S81 dry harder than D2T or is it pretty much six of one, half dozen of the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 You might also try scuff sanding your epoxy sealer with either fine sandpaper, or a brillo pad, to get a better mechanical bond for your primer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluetickhound Posted July 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) You might also try scuff sanding your epoxy sealer with either fine sandpaper, or a brillo pad, to get a better mechanical bond for your primer. I have actually been doing just that with 400 grit., which really leads me to believe the thickness of the polytranspar white base coat is the problem. Will go with multiple thin coats (with better heat setting w/ hairdryer) from now on as opposed to one or two thicker coats. Also thinking about shelving the D2T for the time being to experiment with DN topcoat and/or trying my hand at propionate topcoats. I've been all over the search function to try and see what folks are saying about either one and it's hard to get a consensus... I also saw on the intrawebz a product (the. And of which escapes me right now.. Will search and edit shortly...) that looked very promising yet didn't show up on a search here.... Edit: that product is called Epifanes... Anyone familiar with it? Edited July 2, 2012 by bluetickhound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) I doubt the thickness of the paint had much to do with the bubbling problem. At one time several lure companies dipped their baits in paint for the base coat and if you've ever worked on a Poe's crank you'll know what I'm talking about. It was thick to say the least. Now if you applied a thick coat of paint and didn't let it dry properly we may be talking about a whole different problem. Here's an experiment that might give you some insight as to what caused your lure failure. Take a non-porous material and paint it the same way you did the lure that failed using the exact same procedures as before. Then set it in the same location for the same amount of time and temperature. Now wait and see what happens. If the paint fails on the non-porous material you'll know it was the paint and painting procedures that are the cause of the problem. If it doesn't fail then it's more than likely going to have something to do with the wood that was used. Either it wasn't sealed properly or it got so hot the air, and possibly moisture, in the wood is the culprit. Ben Edited July 2, 2012 by RayburnGuy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
