Swelling Plastic Worms

[smallmouthaholic]

I've never experience this w/ any plastisol I've used from Lurecraft, Calhouns ,Spike-it and Chemionics. , I've witnessed a few worms swell to 2-3x's then normal size when left in water or expelled by bass.I've been told that in the past, some of the bigger manufacturers used a cheaper substiute(other then 100% plastisol) that would cause plastics to swell. I would be interested to hear some facts (not hearsay) from any of the manufacturers on the board that have experienced this. There is some talk about swelling worms blocking the digestive system of bass and the difficulty they have in passing them through their vent.

[carolinamike]

From my expirence, I think the majority of the plastisol that does the large swelling are the baits that incorperate alot of salt. I've seen Zoom chunks 3-4 times bigger than the normal chunk, also I truley dont think that this has a very big adverse effect on the fish. It takes months if not years for a bait to swell like this, and depending on the water temperature fish digest food pretty quick. Alot of the older fellows on here can probably remember when there was not a large variety of slip weights on the market, the majority of your weights were split shots. In my younger days I saw a whole lot of fish with a piece of monofilament fishing line and a split shot hanging from a their vent, and you know that the hook was on the other end of that, I've also seen alot of plastic worms dangling too. Some of the thick bodied baits that I do have to be placed in a cooling tank full of water before we hang them to cure.So at sometime or another a single bait will get knocked into the water, I've had pieces with no salt in the water for as long as six months with very little swelling, the color turns milky but the bait does not swell. I've made sinkos using the same process (because most sinkos are pretty thick) and they're just absolutley loaded with salt and you can tell they are definatly starting to swell but they have not quite doubled. I think the moisture atracting abilities of the salt is one of the main causes of swelling.

[mark poulson]

Mike,

Now that you mention it, I also used to catch a couple of fish a year with either line or plastics coming out of the anal vent.

I haven't seen that in years.

Nowadays, here in CA, the DFG is pushing hard to stop anglers from discarding used plastic worms into the water because they've found bass don't digest them, and the plastics actually block their stomachs and cause them not to be able to eat.

Do you think it's because of a change in the formula for plastics?

[carolinamike]

Mark, I really dont think that its the change in the formula thats causing the problems, I think its actually the retail market. What I mean by that is: when you think about it, the majority of the plastic market used to be worms and lizards and for the most part their diameters were not that large, but now with the introduction of so many creature baits and so many large monster worms, I believe here in lies your problem. Have you ever seen a bass pass a sweet beaver through its anal vent? Kind of makes you shutter to think about it, dont it?

[mark poulson]

Ouch!!! That's a punishment that should be reserved for politicians.

[carolinamike]

Mark I found this in the water cooler and thought you'd get a kick out of it. I think this pretty well proves my salt theory. Two sets of baits. The brush hogs on the left and the fish bodies on the right are the same baits. The fish bodies on the right have no salt. The brush hogs on the left however contain salt. Two of the baits have been on the bottom of the cooler for about 4 months. The submerged brush hog is the one on the left, the submerged fish body is also to the left of its mate. There's almost no size difference in the fish body, although there is a color difference, but the brush hog is twice as big as its mate. I'd say salt makes all the difference.

[J lure]

Just one example why we need better eco-friendly biodegradable plastics, that's available to all.

[carolinamike]

I'm concerned that a biodegradable plastic is not the answer. Basically you're talking about a plastic that melts in the water. How much of this material could be tolerated by fish breathing it? I'm sure there is a point that too much melted material is not good for the fish population even though it may not be toxic to humans. How would fish react to water saturated with such a material? Although the current materials used definitely have their downfalls, there is one positve aspect to it, you can always pick up and clean up the remains. I think it's important not to throw your baits in the water and to bring back all your old baits for recycling. It's scary to think about a plastic material that melts, how would you recover this product out of the water if you needed to?

[Kajan]

Must be a freshwater issue. I say this because I have cleaned 10's of thousands of speckled trout and redfish, and I can only remember 3 times I cleaned fish that had plastic in their stomachs. I can only think of two things that might be happening. One might be, alot of freshwater fishermen in land locked water where lures fall off the hook or tossed in the water drop down into structure where sun is not able to break the plastic down. Second, maybe fresh water lures are made too soft and they fall off the hook too easily and are lost in the water.

Its not very often saltwater lures fly off your hook while fighting a fish. Only brand that comes to mind, which is very soft plastic, is Bassassassin.

So my fix for part of the issue would be, Not tossing old lures into the water, second, Maybe instead of wanting the mass's to go (GREEN) which seems to be a liberal code word, the market should start making lures with harder plastics.

[Basseducer]

Maybe the manufacturers can find a way to recycle used lures like they do soda cans and offer cash per pound.

[J lure]

You two guys are so misinformed when it comes to ecofriendly, green and bio plastics. There are many types of green plastics, eco plastics, and bio plastics. The majority are made or composed of natural or also know as organic compounds that are found in nature naturally. So when it does breakdown it breaks down to microscopic organic materials. Just because a plastic can breaks down which All plastics do anyways thanks to time, environment and natural elements. It doesn't have to mean it has to break down to smaller peices of plastics and polluting the water or fish. It all depends on what the material is composed of. This does happen in salt water too, but thanks to the currents, salt water and sun exposure the plastic breaks down a lot faster. I know this isn't a quick fix or a fix all, but it will help fix the problem.

[Kajan]

Since the lures are oil based, they seem to break down here in salt water as is. But like I said, I think if lures were not discarded or not allowed to fly off the hook so easy, problem would be much less.

[J lure]

I agree with you both when it comes to recycling the baits and don't leave them behindi if it can be helped. But some people suffer from ignorance and stupidity and that's hard to fix

[carolinamike]

Kajan, I think you've got a point. Most salt water plastic is a harder formula and therefore it sinks pretty quickly, but I still think the swelling issue has to do with the salt. Maybe adding salt to the baits is not a good thing after all. But I think it's up to an individual to do his part and if the plastic can be recovered, then a person should do so.

Basseducer, such companies are already in existence. The problem with plastisol is it takes a very large amount to make it economically feasible to recycle. That's one reason we offer material for remelts (trying to do our part). For a recycling company to take our material we can have no less than 10 drums that vary in weight from 360 to 365 pounds each, and it also must be pretty decently clean with no moisture.

J lure, I don't think I'm quite as misinformed as you think, and I guess I should have made myself clear that one of the main materials that I was talking about was not too long ago, there was a thread about baits made out of gelatin. Gelatin is a material that is basically made from animal sinew, bones and acid. This is far from a natural material. I guess you can say bones and sinew are natural products, but the way they produce gelatin is far from natural. Now this other material that you speak of but you failed to mention the name of sounds very interesting. But from an industrial point of view, what would be the cost? You see there's more companies and people out there that are concerned about this issue than you know, but what people are ignorant about is there's not a cost effective compatible material with a decent shelf life. Why do you think the Gulp baits materials are stored in liquid? It's the way they prolong the shelf life. Now if you know of such a material, then my friend you have a chance to be a millionaire, cause the industry as a whole is searching for it. Also have you ever noticed the colors of Gulp baits? Companies have been searching for compatible materials for a long time, but the storage process and economics does not fit in with an industry that is built solely on plastisol material. So in lies the problem. And to me, the stupid people are the ones that are concerned about plastic worms, but if they take their child to the hospital to have an IV or blood that is stored in bags that contain phthalates and the tube that's delivering the fluid to your body, these materials are leeching phthalates as I type. Where is the concern there? If you do know of such a material please contact a lawyer, get it protected and then contact Strike King or one of the very large plastisol producers, they would definitely like to know about this product. Whether you believe it or not, a lot of these larger companies understand that green is definitely the way to go. They just need a feasible alternative.

[J lure]

Mike, your kind of a sensitive guy, maybe I should take your advice and get an attorney to become that millionaire. Man, everyone on this forum lately has been taking everything too serious and to heart. I was just trying to spark concern and induce conversation about the topic. Like I said, it was no one fix to the problem but would help…. You talked about a child receiving IV solutions or blood from the plastic bags and tubes that contain phthalates. The difference is the IV bags and tubes are not stored outside, submerged in water, and exposed to the elements. Also there is a reason the products has expiration dates on them and are not to be used after; this is just not for the solution inside but the container as well. The same thing goes for plastic water bottles, which are 100% safe if stored properly. The same water and water bottle left in a car while exposed to the sun and its rays has been proven to cause cancer in mice and breast cancer in women, thanks to the breakdown of the plastic in the water after a period of time. This can be the same thing why it’s not wise to heat plastic cup and containers in the microwave and to use glass as well as ceramic too. I do agree with you when you say it’s important to recycle and reuse, also not to leave plastic behind in the water. You also talk about products and materials not existing or cost efficient because none of the “big boys” have it. Just because they don’t have it doesn’t mean it’s not out there......

[carolinamike]

J, I'm not that sensitive of a guy, nor am I misinformed, stupid or ignorant. The big boys may not have it, but they want it. Again I didn't make my statement clear, I should have said that I was referring to the gelatin material. And I guess I kind of started this part. I should have just stuck to the subject of plastic swelling, that way I wouldn't have been referred to as misinformed, stupid and ignorant. But by all means, please educate me. If this magical material is now available on the market, what is it? What's the name of it and what materials does it consist of? How does it relate to fish and the environment? What is the cost per pound? And is it available to hand pour folks? Whether IV bags and tubes are out in the sun does not matter. From the time of the production, these items are leaking out small amounts of phthalates. Only flexible soft plastic materials and vinyls contain phthalates. Things like plastic water bottles and cups that are made from hard plastic pellets, do not contain phthalates. The thing about it is there are large companies out there searching for alternatives. And when it comes to plastics, the studies are so sketchy, some are financially motivated and some are politically motivated. Most tests are really inconclusive. Some say materials that are in all plastics both hard and soft are harmful to people and some tests say that they're not. Anytime I get a chance to watch a program on television concerning this subject, I do so. And most of them by the time you're finished watching, you're not exactly sure what to think. I think the main thing is just for everyone to do their part.

[J lure]

I completly agree with you on your last statment "I think the main thing is just for everyone to do their part". Also never called You stupid or ignorant, just misinformed. Also it does matter when it comes to external exposure and plastics. Most medical products are made from the same plastic pellets just like the water bottles are made of with the use of elastomers. We really can't compare medical products to fishing lures any ways since all medical material and products has to pass through the FDA and thier test. All I ever meant in my statments is all the little improvments will lead to a big change.I also have no miricale material even though I'm working on it. There are better ways and material to use, we just have to crack the code.

[Kajan]

• OK, still as of now, this country still has a capitalist economy.

  What I would like to see in a soft plastic lure is:

1. Plastic that is tough
2. Can be poured/injected in any hardness
3. Plastisol is transparent once it is heated and has gone thru its phases
4. Has a very long shelf life
5. Odor that dissipates after its cured
6. After discarded, will dissolve in water with no harmful chemicals in 30-60 days
7. Cost would not be out of the normal price range for average hand pour/injection guys
8. Should have no or minimal bubbles while using product
9. Should not yellow if no overheating occoured
10. When it reaches its working temperature, has enough body to hold glitter but not so thick as to impede hand pouring.

I hope someone who is much smarter than me and has the resources could come up with this product. But for me it has to have all these abilities. Hardest one to acheive would probably be #3, which is a must for me.

[ddano]

I've never experience this w/ any plastisol I've used from Lurecraft, Calhouns ,Spike-it and Chemionics. , I've witnessed a few worms swell to 2-3x's then normal size when left in water or expelled by bass.I've been told that in the past, some of the bigger manufacturers used a cheaper substiute(other then 100% plastisol) that would cause plastics to swell. I would be interested to hear some facts (not hearsay) from any of the manufacturers on the board that have experienced this. There is some talk about swelling worms blocking the digestive system of bass and the difficulty they have in passing them through their vent.

yeah how ironic Al, I also heard of this rumor

[412BaitCo]

I see this all to often. We all know that the better the environment the fish live in the better reproduction, size, quality, quantity, and taste our fish that we all love will have. This is common sense! Why does this kind of conversation always become so politically charged? We the fishermen need to work together on these issues in way that best suits us so that we don't have to worry about regulation/politicians doing it for us in a way that might not suit us. End of story. Sorry for the rant but so tired of seeing what should be constructive conversation turning into an argument.

[carolinamike]

412, you are absolutley right. One of the people on this thread has actually heard from a plastic manufactorer by PM and of course they didn't bother to post whats already been said.

The salt is what causes plastic to swell, it has nothing to do with the plastisol, and to make sure that the obvious things you see in the pictures i've posted was correct I went ahead and contacted 3 manufactorers last week and they said that definatly salt was the culprit(this is the facts not hearsay). One of the manufactorers that monitor TU regularly said that he would PM someone that posted on this thread with the facts. TU is slowly turning into an argumentative forum, I had a long time TU member PM me the other day and tell me he would no longer share any information on the forum, he was tired of being ridiculed for trying to give information from his personal experiences. Its kind of hard to help anyone or give any information after years and years of experience to have someone post and ridicule you and call you a liar or insinuate that you would post something untrue to purposley mislead someone, and every once in a while you will have someone that starts a thread that has no point to it what so ever and mainly put up just to start an argument or either you have someone that posts on a thread that has nothing to do with the origanal starting post, its a shame what TU is turning into.

[412BaitCo]

A proactive turn to this conversation could be the fact that salt is just a filler that's cheaper then the plastic it takes the place of and some could argue the benefit is sink rate. The cons would be brittle baits discoloration and now as we've established swelling. Another proactive point would be that Caney Creek is now offering a sinking additive that supposedly won't swell discolor or even change the softness of a bait. I've yet to personally try it but I've heard good things.

[carolinamike]

We make baits to catch fish and there are some fishermen that truley believe that salt makes fish bite better and hold onto the bait longer. Using a very fine salt will stop the brittleness of the plastic and will give you a great sink rate too, but because of salt's moisture absorbing properties eventually your baits will still swell. Another sinking additive is great from a manufactorer's point of view but you also have to keep in mind the view of the fishermen, and for some there just is no salt substitute.

[412BaitCo]

I agree some people just swear by it. I personally try to talk people out of it but yes I offer it when it's what people want. That's the whole point in buying custom made baits. You have the choice to make the bait the way you want it!

[412BaitCo]

That's the point of a forum. Voice your opinions and see other's. Learn new things an be exposed to new ideas! Thanks for the convo Carolina.