A Couple Questions On Building A Hunting Crank

[ninjalake]

@rayburnguy- slightly off topic from how to make a crank hunt, but....The best hunting crankbait ever imo is the waddlebaits by imakatsu. it's got a wonky blade that spin's 360 deg, mounted between the rear treble and the body. It's by far one of the most innovative features i've ever seen on a crank.

But It's probably only a matter of time before some big company like strike king comes along and rips off the idea.

Anywho- check this out-

Edited October 13, 2012 by ninjalake

[Skeeter]

ninjalake,

Correct, I am not going to tell. The reason is because I have spent countless hours and a lot of trial an error learning what I know. As you can see from this post, there are a lot of guys trying to figure this out. They work very hard and spend much time at what they do. Just look at how many posts RayburnGuy has put on this site. He is a true devoted craftsman. Since you pay such close attention then I'm sure you noticed that I did mention some things that I think they can eliminate from the equation. I don't mind helping but I won't lay it all out on a plate for anyone. Besides, I am not the all knowing. Someone here may have come up with another way to get baits to hunt. I am just like you... I am waiting for them to just tell me how it is done so I don't have to work at it anymore.

As far as "I think there's alot of old crankers in Tenn & NC who would seriously disagree with that statement."..... what do they know? They just fish them, not make them. If these guys know so much, then I am sure they would be glad to tell you how it is done. Or maybe one of them would be kind enough to join the site and share all of their knowledge with the rest of us. All of us here at TU have enquiring minds.

As far as the Japanese pro that got it right....I am keeping that to myself also. His name is not important, but his thought was.

Skeeter

Edited October 13, 2012 by Skeeter

[RayburnGuy]

I may be different from a lot of people, but I don't want anyone to give me step by step instructions on how to build a crankbait that will hunt. I wouldn't feel like I had earned, or learned, anything that way. There are a few people on this forum who have figured it out and several of them have given me hints as to what they feel is right or wrong. I don't think there's a thing wrong with them wanting to keep certain things secret. I doubt anybody gave them a step by step list in how it's done. I may never figure it out, but that's OK too.

Before I retired I was a fabricator/welder and was damn good at my job. If I wasn't the best craftsman on the job site I could sure hold things down until he got there. Over the years I taught quite a few guys who were just starting out how to read blueprints, weld, fabricate pipe and steel, do erection and equipment installation, and so on. The first thing they had to do was prove to me that they wanted to learn and were willing to work at it. If they couldn't do this then I put a grinder in their hands and it stayed there. I feel the same way about building lures. I may, or may not, figure out how to build a crank that will hunt, but it won't be because I didn't put in the effort.

There have been several posts about the waddle bait you mentioned Ninjalake. I think it was LittleRiver (Vic) who built some and believe he posted a picture of one in the gallery. For my intent and purpose I don't consider that a hunting crank though. It may have an action that's similar, but a true hunting lure doesn't have any need of added hardware. I do appreciate the offer though.

Ben

[benton B]

Glad to see you back in action Skeeter, reminds me of the old TU. I learned all I know about building cranks from Skeeter and the pearls of wisdom just like that post.

ninjalake, make some prototypes and try different things, it's not that hard to build a bait that will hunt a little. I figured it out after 3-4yrs of building baits.

[RayburnGuy]

Glad to see you back in action Skeeter, reminds me of the old TU. I learned all I know about building cranks from Skeeter and the pearls of wisdom just like that post.

I've been doing a good bit of reading in the archives again and Skeeter definitely has some pearls of wisdom in there. I've learned a lot about deep cranks from Benton B as well. His deep cranks were the main reason I decided to give building them a try.

I'm glad your posting again as well Skeeter. Look forward to learning some of your tricks of the trade.

Ben

Edited October 15, 2012 by RayburnGuy

[blackjack]

Who are all these old time crankers from NC and Tenn that are making baits that hunt??I constantly read and hear about the elusive "hunting crankbaits" yet have yet to see more than 2 builders baits that hunt. I know one in NC and one in Tenn, Both of them used to frequent this site and offer up their wisdom on a regular basis, Skeeter is one of them, JawJacker is the other. Marty B has it right, build some baits change around the weight placement, line tie placement, lip angle and see what gets you closer to your goal. These are your shortcuts!

[mark poulson]

Well, I have never met anyone who has succeeded in life who didn't get help from someone else.

I don't mind sharing what I've learned, especially since most of what I know about lure making I learned here at TU from others who chose to share.

So....the moving ballast behind the belly hanger works.

Once you think about it, it produces a controlled instability, since the amount of movement of the ballast is limited by the length of the crosswise shaft, and how many BBs are used.

I made a test lure, threw it in gin clear water yesterday, and it hunted. It swung from one direction to the other in 2' swings.

It actually swam for bit, switched direction and swam the other way for a bit, and then switched back and forth that way all the way back to the boat.

It moved approx. 2' on the direction change. At first I thought it was doing a slow roll, but I had several other boaters check it out, and it was not rolling, just changing direction.

The side to side bore hole I used was 1/4", and the two BBs I used were 5/32", so they both went past the centerline of the lure on the switch. I'm thinking a 3/16" bore would keep the BBs single file, and maybe make the side to side quicker and less of a swing and more of a darting action.

That's my next prototype!

I use PVC trimboard for my cranks. If you use wood, try to find a plastic drinking straw to like you bore holes so the BBs move freely.

Edited October 15, 2012 by mark poulson

[spoonpluggergino]

I do not know if this helps but I know that if you look at the old Bomber or waterdog baits they all hunt. you can find this old baits on e-bay

spoonpluggergino

[spoonpluggergino]

Here is another idea that i have been thinking about that may work for a hunting bait. Think of a boat and trailer if too mutch weight is at the rear of the trailer the trailer will fishtail from left to right

my two cents

Gino

[ninjalake]

@blackjack

I wasn't referring to people who build & sell lures specifically, I was referring to cb fisherman in general who know how to modify & tweak their cb's to hunt. I'd say there's hundreds. (But it was probably more prevalent in the 60's-80's than now).

To quote David Fritts himself: “I think it’s safe to say that the fishermen in the High Rock area know more about crankbaits and crankbait fishing than anyone in the country,” Fritts said. “And I’m not talking about myself; there’s a world of good crankbait fishermen and people who mess with crankbaits in my home area.”

And I think perhaps you (and BentonB ) have me confused with the OP. I'm familiar with a variety of different methods for making crankbaits hunt. I'm only 34 but I've been throwing crankbaits since i was 10 and have been blessed to have learned from some incredible fishermen. No big names, just old timers who whittled all week & fished all weekend. Growing up in Florida, I think I was about 12 when I was taught some of the more simpler techniques like bending a line ties, driving a small nail tip into the head, shaving lips & bodies, etching grooves, etc.(but to be honest, most of the time we just ruined our grandads lures lol).

I love cb's. CB's have captivated me to a point where it's almost unhealthy. So much so that I even studied hydrodynamics courses through MIT. But I'll be the first to admit I'm much better at altering baits than building em.

I'd also like to apologize if I came off rude. I sent a PM to skeeter directly, apologizing for the way I replied to his post. This being a bait building forum where folks share & learn, It just seemed weird that one would chime in to just to say "I know how but I'm not telling". Im new here & dont know the ropes, but after reading lots of older posts it made sense to me that some techniques are held sacred and just aren't given out so freely.

And I can respect that.

I know a bit about crankbait dynamics, but I still consider myself a rookie and feel I have a long way to go. I look forward to learning from others here, sharing their ideas & knowledge on the subject. And hopefully one day I can contribute something cool as well.

Edited October 16, 2012 by ninjalake

[mark poulson]

ninjalake,

You said what a lot of us were thinking. I didn't think you were rude, just abrupt. And it sounds like you handled the whole thing very well in the end. So it's no harm, no foul.

I guess finesse comes with age. Or maybe it's just that we lose our punch as we get older. Hahaha

I'm sure there are a lot of ways to make a crank bait hunt. I just found one, by buying a clear KDV 1.5 and seeing how Strike King does it on mass produced lures.

The overall idea of building a lure that is right on the edge of instability always struck me as a really iffy proposition, with too many variables.

I'm not a crank bait designer, by any means, but I am a problem solver, and I am thrilled to have found a way to make a crank bait hunt that can be duplicated, and isn't too complicated.

And I think I owe it to the members of TU to share with them, since they have shared so much with me over the years.

To me, this site is all about sharing and learning.

I'm glad you found us.

[ninjalake]

Hey mark,

I meant to comment on your previous post, about the side to side ballast/balls. I love it man. I've always just set the ballast higher, some baits I'll drill through the ballast and past it, then fill it in with lead. I've thought of the side to side shifting ballast you mentioned but have never tried to build one. I was actually thinking of making a track/tunnel in the shape of a smile, or upside rainbow. My theory being that you could control it with a quick burn or shift in the rod, and that it might also cause the bait to hunt higher or lower diagonally. Just haven't thought of a way to drill a 1/4 circle tunnel.

I recently came across a unique square bill that sort of reminded me of your previous post, this little guy- http://www.tacklewarehouse.com/AR_Lures_Crank_65_Shallow_Crankbait/descpage-ARC65.html

It seems to have a soft ball rolling around in it's head. It's either a rubber ball or soft tungsten & gives a unique thump instead of a knock/rattle. The walls on it are extremely thick as well and the tone is slight and deep. It also has what appears to be a screw in its face above the line tie. This crank will hunt in a unique way, in that it appears to be drunk, for lack of a better description. Where it really shines is in its deflection properties, that sucker will hit a rock and deflect as much as a foot. It's very lifelike. If you've ever had an aquarium with wood or rocks(especially wood) you'll see fish do this, as if they're trying to scratch an itch, hard. It drives the alpha fish in the aquarium crazy and he immediately keys in on said itchy fish. Why it drives em crazy, I have no idea, but it does, regardless of species.

Sorry to get off topic. Thanks for sharing that, now I want to go disect a KVD

Edited October 16, 2012 by ninjalake

[mark poulson]

I checked out the square bill at TW. Very nice, but very pricey.

I'm thinking you can get the same muffled thud by using a lead split shot as a moving ballast ball.

I had thought of using a sst setscrew to add ballast in small amounts in very specific locations, or even installed vertically, so I could move the center of gravity of a lure up or down to adjust it slightly, but I never followed through with the idea. Too lazy.

Maybe fish mark their territory like bears and deer.

Don't dissect it, just buy a clear one that you can see through, like the sexy ghost minnow.

[RayburnGuy]

I checked out the square bill at TW. Very nice, but very pricey.

I'm thinking you can get the same muffled thud by using a lead split shot as a moving ballast ball.

I had thought of using a sst setscrew to add ballast in small amounts in very specific locations, or even installed vertically, so I could move the center of gravity of a lure up or down to adjust it slightly, but I never followed through with the idea. Too lazy.

Maybe fish mark their territory like bears and deer.

Don't dissect it, just buy a clear one that you can see through, like the sexy ghost minnow.

I wouldn't say your lazy Mark. There's just too many lures and too little time.

Ben

[mark poulson]

I wouldn't say your lazy Mark. There's just too many lures and too little time.

Ben

Hahaha. You're too kind!

[mark poulson]

Update:

I painted my hunting prototype with Createx, probably 10 coats altogether, and then dipped it three times in my urethane topcoat.

When I fished it, it rolled. I had to add a suspend dot between the bill and the belly hanger to get it to swim and hunt again.

So, evidently, my paint and topcoat adds buoyancy, enough so that I will add more front ballast in my next one to allow for it.

Who'da thunkit?

[bluetickhound]

Bumpmaster BTH strikes again!! I have been tinkering with smaller crankbaits than I usually build (1/2 oz and less size as opposed to my usual fat boy 3/4 oz and up sizes...) and have made a few (a very few...) that have what I would call a "hunting" action. I haven't used moveable ballast or funky bill shaving techniques to do it but for me, bill shape/angle and ballast placement are the keys to getting a bait to hunt. I had tried my hand at reproducing a Waddle Bat with limited success but have gone away from thise for now. I may revisit the concept later but crankbaits have been made that hunt without the rear blade so I know it can be done... Like Ben, I don't want someone to hand over hard won knowledge for free as I wouldn't feel like I had actually accomplished anything but if anyone reading this has any insights on whether I'm on the right track I would appreciate them saying so!

[RayburnGuy]

I wish I could say I'd figured out how to consistently build a lure that hunts, but sadly I can't. Thought I was on to something a time or two, and have gotten a couple of baits to act weird, but nothing I'd call a true hunting action. There were multiple baits built with different sizes of lips and lip angles, slightly different line tie locations. ballast placement, etc. Ballast location is one thing that was experimented with quite a bit. It was moved forward and backward as well as being placed farther up into the center of the bait close to the horizontal axis. Ballast was even placed in the top of a few baits in addition to the bottom hoping to create just enough of an imbalance that it would start the action I was looking for.  So far nothing I could call a true hunting action has been accomplished.

 

I experimented with this for a couple weeks at a time on several different occasions before finally getting aggravated enough to put it on the back burner until the "agony of defeat" wears off. Being as hardheaded as I am there will definitely be more experiments on this subject. I just have to give myself a cooling down period every now and then before going back to work on something that has so far gotten the best of me.

 

Right now the best I can do is wish you good luck.

 

Ben

[Vodkaman]

Love this topic.

 

I made a batch of small flat sided baits a while back, to find out my success rate. I managed 9 out of 10 hunting and I know what I did wrong on the failure too.

 

Stick with it, you will kick yourself when you discover the secret

 

Dave

[bluetickhound]

The more I play with this the more I feel like the belly weight has more to do with it than the bill but I suppose its all tied together.... Like spinning plates... Everything depends on everything else being just so or you don't get what you want....

[bluetickhound]

Found this picture in a search for Fred Young Big O's... This guy auctioned off three he owned and the pictures he posted are very helpful... To me, at least... Especially the bottom right.

Edited June 8, 2013 by bluetickhound

[ninjalake]

For what it's worth- the new Bagley balsa B's (b1) will hunt at higher speeds right out of the package. I've been buying a lot of different American & Japanese squarebills lately. From my observations, the ones that hunt have a few things in common I've found:

- they weigh less than 1/2oz

- the line tie is right on top of the bill, touching it(see the new b1).

- they have a skinny little 'tail' (as in the back is tapered sharply).

Whether these attributes help make them hunt I don't know, but they all have these 3 things in common.

An interesting take on hunting cranks is another crank by Imakatsu(those guys are seriously innovative), called the scare brow. It's a crank with 2 knots on its forehead like a furoughed brow. It makes subtle tics to the left & right. Like other hunting cranks, the smaller size version (the 48) has a better action. It's a cool little crank that catches fish.

I have a little megabass sr-x quiet griffon that I tweaked and torqued on the line tie & split ring, and whatever I did... It'll run straight at normal speeds but speed it up and it'll come up and jump right outta the water (and not in a sloppy, blown out way). It's the damnedest thing I've ever seen, and it looks good/triggers strikes lol. Should be effective when throwing into schooling bass chasing shad

[ninjalake]

The megabass 'jumper'

Edited June 8, 2013 by ninjalake

[ninjalake]

Love this topic.

 

I made a batch of small flat sided baits a while back, to find out my success rate. I managed 9 out of 10 hunting and I know what I did wrong on the failure too.

 

Stick with it, you will kick yourself when you discover the secret

 

Dave

A hunting flatside crank, that's cool! I've never seen or heard of that, how about posting up some photos or a little video of it swimming whenever you get a chance, I'd like to see that.

[bluetickhound]

For what it's worth- the new Bagley balsa B's (b1) will hunt at higher speeds right out of the package. I've been buying a lot of different American & Japanese squarebills lately. From my observations, the ones that hunt have a few things in common I've found:

- they weigh less than 1/2oz

- the line tie is right on top of the bill, touching it(see the new b1).

- they have a skinny little 'tail' (as in the back is tapered sharply).

Whether these attributes help make them hunt I don't know, but they all have these 3 things in common.

An interesting take on hunting cranks is another crank by Imakatsu(those guys are seriously innovative), called the scare brow. It's a crank with 2 knots on its forehead like a furoughed brow. It makes subtle tics to the left & right. Like other hunting cranks, the smaller size version (the 48) has a better action. It's a cool little crank that catches fish.

I have a little megabass sr-x quiet griffon that I tweaked and torqued on the line tie & split ring, and whatever I did... It'll run straight at normal speeds but speed it up and it'll come up and jump right outta the water (and not in a sloppy, blown out way). It's the damnedest thing I've ever seen, and it looks good/triggers strikes lol. Should be effective when throwing into schooling bass chasing shad

That's cool! Do you know exactly what you did or is it one of those "happy accidents" that couldn't be duplicated if you tried it a hundred times?