Fluid Bed And Tyvek

[cadman]

I have always had problems with my white powder paint when it came to fluid beds. I have tried over 30 brands of white and have finally had one custom blended to where I thought it was as good as it gets when it comes to using it in a fluid bed. I still got volcanoes with my final white, but nowhere near to what I have had in the past. In my final white I would get the volcanoes and then I would just take a popsicle stick and stir it occasionally and they would go away, only to come back shortly thereafter. Yeah, I know you can get a vibrator to put under the fluid bed, but I didn't want to start clamping and drilling and gluing to retrofit my fluid bed. So I had some time yesterday and thought of a post or posts by someone who said that they used the "Tyvek" envelopes you get from the Post Office. In looking at these, doesn't seem like much and I was very wary. I've been down this road before and I didn't want to go there again. I put the envelope to my mouth and blew in there to see if air would indeed escape. Wow don't think this is going to work. Anyway my curiosity got the best of me, and I cut out a couple 3" diameter discs. I took out a new fluid bed cup, and glued the disc on with gel superglue. Turned the cup over and placed it on some wax paper on my workbench, which then I put some heavy books on top of the cup to hold it in place to let it dry. Today about 2:00 pm I need to paint about 100 white jigs. I took the books off, pulled off the waxpaper from the bottom of the cup, and everything looked fine so far. I then sanded off all the excess glue on the side of the cup, stuck the cup into the fluid bed  and started to add my white powder. Plugged in the air pump, opened the air valve and nothing. A little bit more and nothing (you tend to do this really slow with powder paint as I don't have to explain) a little bit more and voila my powder was boiling soooo nicely. I let it run for 10 minutes to see what would happen. This is what powder paint fluid bed dreams are made of. The powder boiled nicely, slowly turning over on itself as the bottom came to the top. I marveled at this creation and thought to myself why didn't I try this before. Finished the 100 jigs in no-time and the powder was still bubbling like it did when I started it couple of hours ago.

       So with that said, I hope this isn't a fluke and that all the stars were lined up for me today to make this happen. I will post back with my findings in several months, to let you know how this goes. I'm thinking that since it is winter here in IL, the powder is drier, thus making everything  ideal. We shall see when April comes.

       Finally I want to thank whomever that person(s) was who posted this info. I posted this to let you guys know that this might be something to try if you haven't done so yet. This is all in the early stages for me so we'll see how it goes.

[Kasilofchrisn]

Glad to hear you got this problem powder figured out.

I have read mixed reviews on using Tyvek. Some say it isn't layered evenly so it doesn't spread the air out as evenly as a perfectly flat fluid bed media does.

Obviously it worked well for you.

Do you find a benefit to gluing on the filter material vs using the test caps to secure it?

[cadman]

Glad to hear you got this problem powder figured out.

I have read mixed reviews on using Tyvek. Some say it isn't layered evenly so it doesn't spread the air out as evenly as a perfectly flat fluid bed media does.

Obviously it worked well for you.

Do you find a benefit to gluing on the filter material vs using the test caps to secure it?

Just to clarify, I by all means don't have this figured out. LOL I am thinking that this is a fluke. The reason I say this is I've tried everything for fluid be media except this. I have been pouring jigs for about 9 years . I have been powder painting for the last 8 and although i have had a fluid bed for a long time I have struggled to make this thing work the way it is supposed to. We all know that different powders have different chemical make-up thus making some work more fluid then others. At some point and time I got so frustrated with a fluid bed that I didn't use it for several years which forced me to use my current method, which I laboriously practiced for years and got decent at it. I like the fluid bed especially for one color applications. It is so much easier than dipping in a jar. Now the reason I say that this could be a fluke is that everything for me works flawlessly in winter. The air is really dry, so naturally the powder paint will be as well. Also I can pour 100's of jig in the dead of winter with it being below zero outside, and I rarely have any bad pours from any of my molds. So I've come to a conclusion, that humidity is a killer for me. I do know it affects powder paint, however I don't understand how it affects lead pouring. Come Spring time I will start having issue with pouring, though powder paint does not give me the problems the way pouring does.

Now to answer your question regarding using caps or just straight filter media. I have never used the test caps, so I can not give you an accurate answer. However I have always glued the media to the entire bottom of the cup. My thinking on this is ( don't know if it's correct) that if I get as much surface area open to the powder, I should get a more even powder flow distribution, because there will be no dead spots for the powder to sit. This is just my personal opinion, I have not done any studies or testing on air movement in relation to open air area.

I am going to rip open my other cup tomorrow and put a piece of Tyvek on that cup to see how that works with a different color. The real test will be with green pumpkin color. The one I have is very heavy and has to be constantly shaken or stirred. I want to see if it fluidizes the green pumpkin.

I will post results as time goes on. Again this is going too easy for me. The sky has to fall out sooner or later. LOL

Edited December 30, 2012 by cadman

[Kasilofchrisn]

I guess the key is to find what works for you and use that method. If Tyvek solves your problems with your problem colors then use it. I sure hope it solves some issues for you.

I am going to try fluidizing plate on my next batch of fluid bed cups. The stuff I bought on EBAY and cut up into circles.

This is mainly to prevent making a mess when painting larger jigs in the event one gets dropped in the fluid bed.

A hole in your filter media does indeed make a mess.lol

Other than a couple of hard bottom cups from Barlows I have been using vaccumm cleaner bag material on the cup bottoms using the test caps and that has worked real well for me with the exception of the one ripped bottom I had.

I only make stuff for myself and friends so I don't do large runs of one color so I like to have multiple cups handy with different colors.

I will remember to try the Tyvek in the future if I have problem powders. Thanks for the info.

[mark poulson]

Neat idea!  I can get tons of Tyvek house wrap scraps off the jobsite.  I'll have to give it a try.

Thanks.

[cadman]

Neat idea!  I can get tons of Tyvek house wrap scraps off the jobsite.  I'll have to give it a try.

Thanks.

Mark,

    You seem like you know your Tyvek. So here is my question to you. I always thought that Tyvek was a plastic sheating you put over houses exterior before siding goes on as a moisture barrier. If that is correct, I am confused. Because the stuff I picked up at the Post Office looks to me like a series of fused fiberglass strands. So is the stuff I have really Tyvek? Maybe I am using this word incorrectly. Please elaborate. If you get to the Post office, and see this stuff let me know if it is Tyvek, so I use the correct terminology, or I can send you a piece of the stuff I have for your identification. Thanks for any help'

[tbrinlee]

Tyvek passes moisture vapor through but not liquid water. I imagine that as you use the material you have for a while it will eventually start doing the same thing as your other filter materials. 

 

I imagine that it is the vapor that is condensing in the powder causing it to clump together thus the volcanoes. I have had old powder paint do that on me. I do believe you may be able to "dry" it out between uses using silicon gel from the craft store. You can reuse the stuff by popping it in the oven and heating it back up. It's a poor mans desiccant.

 

Here's a pretty good article on it.

http://www.ehow.com/way_5312158_create-homemade-desiccants.html

 

 

Tony

[makokeith]

I have always had problems with my white powder paint when it came to fluid beds. I have tried over 30 brands of white and have finally had one custom blended to where I thought it was as good as it gets when it comes to using it in a fluid bed. I still got volcanoes with my final white, but nowhere near to what I have had in the past. In my final white I would get the volcanoes and then I would just take a popsicle stick and stir it occasionally and they would go away, only to come back shortly thereafter. Yeah, I know you can get a vibrator to put under the fluid bed, but I didn't want to start clamping and drilling and gluing to retrofit my fluid bed. So I had some time yesterday and thought of a post or posts by someone who said that they used the "Tyvek" envelopes you get from the Post Office. In looking at these, doesn't seem like much and I was very wary. I've been down this road before and I didn't want to go there again. I put the envelope to my mouth and blew in there to see if air would indeed escape. Wow don't think this is going to work. Anyway my curiosity got the best of me, and I cut out a couple 3" diameter discs. I took out a new fluid bed cup, and glued the disc on with gel superglue. Turned the cup over and placed it on some wax paper on my workbench, which then I put some heavy books on top of the cup to hold it in place to let it dry. Today about 2:00 pm I need to paint about 100 white jigs. I took the books off, pulled off the waxpaper from the bottom of the cup, and everything looked fine so far. I then sanded off all the excess glue on the side of the cup, stuck the cup into the fluid bed  and started to add my white powder. Plugged in the air pump, opened the air valve and nothing. A little bit more and nothing (you tend to do this really slow with powder paint as I don't have to explain) a little bit more and voila my powder was boiling soooo nicely. I let it run for 10 minutes to see what would happen. This is what powder paint fluid bed dreams are made of. The powder boiled nicely, slowly turning over on itself as the bottom came to the top. I marveled at this creation and thought to myself why didn't I try this before. Finished the 100 jigs in no-time and the powder was still bubbling like it did when I started it couple of hours ago.

       So with that said, I hope this isn't a fluke and that all the stars were lined up for me today to make this happen. I will post back with my findings in several months, to let you know how this goes. I'm thinking that since it is winter here in IL, the powder is drier, thus making everything  ideal. We shall see when April comes.

       Finally I want to thank whomever that person(s) was who posted this info. I posted this to let you guys know that this might be something to try if you haven't done so yet. This is all in the early stages for me so we'll see how it goes.

I use tyvek suits. Outside up so the powder sits on it. I do not glue it , just cut a 4inch rind and set it into the base.One day I will post up some pics of my fluid beds. I don't know where the idea came from, I hope it was mine, LOL. But I have posted it on the net possibly here too. Glad it works for you.

[cadman]

So I still have this question. Is Tyvek look like spun fibers? Also I never leave my powder paint in the fluid bed. It goes in when I need it and comes out when I'm done. This saves a lot of time with moisture and humidity problems. Hopefully this will wok on a regular basis.

Edited January 1, 2013 by cadman

[Kasilofchrisn]

Yes I believe all Tyvek whether its mailing envelops,chemical suits,or housewrap is made from layers of spun fibers.

[cadman]

Yes I believe all Tyvek whether its mailing envelops,chemical suits,or housewrap is made from layers of spun fibers.

 

Thank You. Now I can relate to the material I have and use the correct verbage.

[defish]

Did a Google search on "tyvek envelope"  It sounds a lot less prone to punctures than paper filters.

 

 

DELUXE

FLAT

Resist tearing, puncturing and water damage with these self-seal mailers.

 

• Recommended for important documents and sensitive materials.
  
• Virtually indestructible - Tyvek® material is ten times stronger than paper.
  
• Save postage - Half the weight of paper.
  
• 14 lb. spunbound olefin.

[mark poulson]

Cadman,

I only "know" about Tyvek house wrap, and that knowledge is from watching it being used, and asking the lathers.

The house wrap is always put on with the label side facing out.  It's good advertising, but I think it may have something to do with how moisture flows out, but not it.

When I use it for my filter paper, I plan to put it on so the label side is facing the powder, so the air can flow up through the wrap.

I didn't even know the post office sold Tyvek envelopes.  Doh!!!  So I am totally clueless about the similarities or differences between the two products.  Sorry.

[cadman]

Cadman,

I only "know" about Tyvek house wrap, and that knowledge is from watching it being used, and asking the lathers.

The house wrap is always put on with the label side facing out.  It's good advertising, but I think it may have something to do with how moisture flows out, but not it.

When I use it for my filter paper, I plan to put it on so the label side is facing the powder, so the air can flow up through the wrap.

I didn't even know the post office sold Tyvek envelopes.  Doh!!!  So I am totally clueless about the similarities or differences between the two products.  Sorry.

Mark,

    That is what I did. Fortunately, I put the printed side inward  towards where the powder would sit. I guess somebody was looking out for me, as I didn't know there is a good side and a bad side so to speak. So far so good on white.

[fshng2]

Mark,

    That is what I did. Fortunately, I put the printed side inward  towards where the powder would sit. I guess somebody was looking out for me, as I didn't know there is a good side and a bad side so to speak. So far so good on white.

Great post by all. Cadman I just finished my first fluid bed today and I am waiting for the adhesive to dry. Hope to fire it up and paint about 70 jigs a white pearl basecoat tomorrow. I am using the Tyvek with the printing side inward.

How did the Tyvek work for you thru the four seasons and humid conditions?

[rhahn427]

I'm thinking of making my own cups and I'll definitely try the tyvek ......... But where can you buy those caps that you put on the cups to store the powder in the cups

[fshng2]

I'm thinking of making my own cups and I'll definitely try the tyvek ......... But where can you buy those caps that you put on the cups to store the powder in the cups

The caps are actually called test caps and can be found at any plumbing supply. Lowes and Home Depot have them.

For the cups use 3 inch diameter schedule 40 PVC pipe cut to length usually 4 inch. Then glue on Tyvek, trim and sand to fit.

Edited June 27, 2015 by fshng2

[rhahn427]

Hey thanks for the info

[fshng2]

Hey thanks for the info

Your welcome, need any more info someone here can always help.

[Kasilofchrisn]

I'm thinking of making my own cups and I'll definitely try the tyvek ......... But where can you buy those caps that you put on the cups to store the powder in the cups

The easiest thing to do is to put one of those knock out test caps in the piece of pipe you intend to use as your fluid bed cup.

Take a hammer and punch out the center of the test cap and discard. This comes out quite easily.

Remove the remaining ring and save it. Put your Tyvek or whatever filter membrane you choose over the pipe. Replace the ring. 

You now should have a nice tight filter membrane that is removable and replaceable. 

For example if you want to clean out a cup and put in a different color paint.

For the lids I like the Knock out test caps with the tab that sticks up in the center. It makes it easier to remove when you need to use the cup.

[andy1976]

Thanks ill try the tyvec. I use harbor freight white and add 3-4 oz's of ultra gloss clear to 1 lb white. That seems to make it roll nicely in the cup without volcanoes. There are two other things I do when my colors give me trouble. The first is I run it through a fine screen. That seems to help a lot. The other is I add some moisture remover in the paint and store it that way. At Walmart in the closet section they sell these packets to remove moisture from your closet. I have saved a few Paints that way that I was ready to toss.

[rhahn427]

The easiest thing to do is to put one of those knock out test caps in the piece of pipe you intend to use as your fluid bed cup.

Take a hammer and punch out the center of the test cap and discard. This comes out quite easily.

Remove the remaining ring and save it. Put your Tyvek or whatever filter membrane you choose over the pipe. Replace the ring. 

You now should have a nice tight filter membrane that is removable and replaceable. 

For example if you want to clean out a cup and put in a different color paint.

For the lids I like the Knock out test caps with the tab that sticks up in the center. It makes it easier to remove when you need to use the cup.

That's a great idea ........ Thanks

The caps are actually called test caps and can be found at any plumbing supply. Lowes and Home Depot have them.

For the cups use 3 inch diameter schedule 40 PVC pipe cut to length usually 4 inch. Then glue on Tyvek, trim and sand to fit.

Thanks ........ Heading to Lowes

[fshng2]

Hey thanks for the info

Post Office Tyvek, Cup, & Lid

I put a small champher on the edge of the cup before gluing by scraping a utility knife around the circumference. I was suprised when I trimmed the Tyvek closely with a sharp pair of scissors I didn't need to sand the edge.

Edited June 28, 2015 by fshng2

[cadman]

Great post by all. Cadman I just finished my first fluid bed today and I am waiting for the adhesive to dry. Hope to fire it up and paint about 70 jigs a white pearl basecoat tomorrow. I am using the Tyvek with the printing side inward.

How did the Tyvek work for you thru the four seasons and humid conditions?

Sorry for the late reply. For some reason I am not getting any replies to my posts via e-mail and I don't know what happened. Anyway, the Ty-vek has worked really well for me. I now have them in all of my cups. Even in the most humid conditions the tyvek works. The problem I do have is trying to keep the powder from absorbing the humidity.

[fshng2]

Sorry for the late reply. For some reason I am not getting any replies to my posts via e-mail and I don't know what happened. Anyway, the Ty-vek has worked really well for me. I now have them in all of my cups. Even in the most humid conditions the tyvek works. The problem I do have is trying to keep the powder from absorbing the humidity.

Thanks for getting back to me. I went with Ty-vek on the cups and glued with

RTV.

It worked first time and achieved a much thinner coating than dipping in the jar.

As far as humidity I have heard to store paint in a cool air conditioned space because P/P is hydroscopic or has an affinity for water.

FYI:

I have since found out that Tyvek is a spun olefin (poly)

The best glue to use is PVC pipe cement because both materials melt into each other. If purchasing a new can get the all purpose (ABS/PVC/CPVC).

Use with adequate ventilation.