cbj11lbs Posted January 6, 2013 Report Share Posted January 6, 2013 are any of these molds and designs we buy from del, basstackle, caneycreek, bears etc. infringing on any patents held by zoom or any other major manufacturer? Zoom is the only one that comes to mind who tries to bully people about every part of their baits but theres 1,000 copycats. Does anyone know very much about how close a bait needs to be to be infringing on another bait? Take dels 5" fluke type bait; it is very similar to zooms super fluke but its head is longer, tail is wider but its the same thing. Im trying not to get stuck with any papers from a patent attorney if i sell that bait or any other bait i bought online or design myself and have a custom mold cut. thanks guys...this is unfamiliar territory for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 This is a subject that I learned about the hard way. $12,000.00 worth the hard way. I really wouldn't call Zoom a bully because after talking with Eddie Chambers at Zoom, he explained to me the basics. Patents cost a lot of money to get and even more money to protect. That is the main reason Zoom is so protective. Patents are worded in a way that it about takes a lawyer to really read them but if you use the patent number and look up the patent through the US patent office, read through the whole patent, the main points will be touched on over and over in the patent. These are the things you have to stay away from. And let me clear up another myth for you right now, some people say oh, it has to be 10% to 20% difference in order not to infringe, this is not true. With the right patent, you will infringe no matter what the percentage is if there are any similarities. Take the superchunk for instance, each little knot on the tail and the ridge on the outside of the tail is claimed to make the bait swim and perform in a certain way, therefore no matter how you change the shape, if you include the little knots and the ridge on the outside of the tail, you are guilty of infringement. Eddie Chambers at Zoom is a very nice guy, but very firm. But their lawyer on the other hand, does not have a nice bone in his body. There's a couple of different kind of patents, but either way, I would stay away from those type of baits. As far as the molds sold by other companies, if they were in infringement, they would have already gotten the letter from the lawyers, so you should be ok with these types of molds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bass-Snax-Custom-Baits Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 I would sugest staying away from any molds the resemble zoom products, If you are looking for different molds, buy from caney creek they will not copy any other companies deisgns. Basstackle also has there own style of molds. Dels look to be exact copies of some of the larger comapnies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbj11lbs Posted January 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 The Zoom Super Chunk vs Grande Bass Mega Chunk seems stupid, those two baits are way different with different action, cant seem to understand why the mega chunk out of allllllll the knockoffs is bad enough for a lawsuit. Zoom has as many patents as they do colors, seems another comoany cant even put little bumps on top of thier frog. How are we to know what ornamental features and shapes we can use?? we have good (and different ) ideas too but seems you cant even design anything that might have something on it zoom did 30 years ago and not get served. Any help? lol ANd yes i hear good things about ed at zoom, just trying to figure out if i have any design freedoms to put cut feet on a frog or bumps on a frog etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowFISH Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 This is a subject that I learned about the hard way. $12,000.00 worth the hard way. I really wouldn't call Zoom a bully because after talking with Eddie Chambers at Zoom, he explained to me the basics. Patents cost a lot of money to get and even more money to protect. That is the main reason Zoom is so protective. Patents are worded in a way that it about takes a lawyer to really read them but if you use the patent number and look up the patent through the US patent office, read through the whole patent, the main points will be touched on over and over in the patent. These are the things you have to stay away from. And let me clear up another myth for you right now, some people say oh, it has to be 10% to 20% difference in order not to infringe, this is not true. With the right patent, you will infringe no matter what the percentage is if there are any similarities. Take the superchunk for instance, each little knot on the tail and the ridge on the outside of the tail is claimed to make the bait swim and perform in a certain way, therefore no matter how you change the shape, if you include the little knots and the ridge on the outside of the tail, you are guilty of infringement. Eddie Chambers at Zoom is a very nice guy, but very firm. But their lawyer on the other hand, does not have a nice bone in his body. There's a couple of different kind of patents, but either way, I would stay away from those type of baits. As far as the molds sold by other companies, if they were in infringement, they would have already gotten the letter from the lawyers, so you should be ok with these types of molds. This is very good info regarding infringement/etc. I've always laughed at the 10%-20% logic.... As a package/product designer we deal with this all the time and you wouldn't beleive how some companies have patents locked up.... some to the degree that you can't even use a common manufaturing process in the same product category!!!! For those who want to read patents.... you can also use Google patents... type in a key search word and read away. It is important to note the difference between a design patent and a utility patent. Real top level - design patent is a "looks like this patent" so you may be able to make an item that works the same functionally, but the form / shape needs to be different. Like crankbaits - most fuction the same, but all look a bit different. Utility patents cover the items that make something function a particular way or manufacturing process etc.... as as stated above the details for Zoom knot/ridges mentioned are likely a utility patent. A very good patent covers as many variations/possibilites as possible. Also note that patents DO EXPIRE.... I beleive it's (17 years for patents before '95 and 20 years since) after filing date.... so you may want to check when a patent was applied for if its a older design, as it may be close to expiring and being public knowledge. J. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbj11lbs Posted January 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 What companies besides zoom patent their baits? i think strike king does but im not sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbj11lbs Posted January 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 lol ya i heard about the old salt patent...guess that ones been long expired Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted January 7, 2013 Report Share Posted January 7, 2013 Netbait paca chunk has some kind of protection I dont know if its a patent or not, but thats one that bit Zoom in the tail. i know the guys that made the production mold, when the mold was first made zoom went after Netbait for patent infringement so they had to change the mold, this led to the current design of the paca chunk, and i wouldnt be afraid to say that they out sell the super chunk as far as the super chunk and small super chunk, those patents are still current, believe you me im waiting on the day they expire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassinfool Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Netbait paca chunk has some kind of protection I dont know if its a patent or not, but thats one that bit Zoom in the tail. i know the guys that made the production mold, when the mold was first made zoom went after Netbait for patent infringement so they had to change the mold, this led to the current design of the paca chunk, and i wouldnt be afraid to say that they out sell the super chunk as far as the super chunk and small super chunk, those patents are still current, believe you me im waiting on the day they expire. I know for a fact that Del had and possibly still has a mold on their site that appears to be identical to the super chunk mold. If it isn't there then it is probably still on Lurecraft's site. With all the trouble you can get yourself into through infringing on someone's patent there is no way in hell I would ever make anything that resembled someone else's product that is patented. I like having what little money I have far too much to try that haha. Although Mike, I too am looking forward to the day when the super chunk patent expires. Of course, with my luck Zoom would just refile the patent and I would have to wait another 15-20 years, or however long it takes for them to expire. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Why even loose 2 seconds of sleep over the Zoom super chunk patent? There are soooooo many good injectable CNC crawfish imitations that work much better then a Zoom chunk. Try something new and be pleasantly surprised. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassinfool Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 I have quite a few different craw molds, I use the BT 702 regularly but sometimes that super chunk is just what the fish want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 My mess started about 15 years ago, i hand poured my chunks for 9 years, sold them on the internet and had them in at least 10 stores. It wasnt until i started large scale production that i got my first letter. I had my machines, i had just gotten one production mold and hadnt even recieved the other one yet when the cease and assist letter came. One of the molds is brand new sitting on the shelf never been used, the other mold i think i made 2 colors off of it and never got to sell a chunk. at that time there were still 13 years left in the patent, 6000 bucks per mold, but their time will come and yes i could change the molds but the sales do not justify the cost bassinfool, you can get by with it looking like zoom's chunk, alot of companies do but those dang little knots and especially the ridge on the outside of the tail is what you better stay away from, thats what got me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbj11lbs Posted January 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 How can I find out if the bumps and ridges on the horny toad are patented? there are lots of frogs with some sort of hump, bumps and ridges on teh top portion of the frog. Does anyone here know? seems to be lots of patent savy folks on here, which is greatly appreciated by me 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassinfool Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 I have some hand pour molds that I made on my own that I formed from a super chunk and then smoothed it completely out so there were no ridges or bumps on it by using a paintbrush to add more plaster to the mold after I had formed the shape of the chunk. I don't particularly care for hand pouring though because of the mess and added time spent having to trim any mess so I am just excited for when I can actually inject some. CBJ, the best thing you can do is read a lot of the patents and see exactly what they cover and what they don't. I can't personally say because I am neither an expert on patents or a lawyer. The best thing you can do is make a mold design that is different in a way than any bait that is patented. With the cut feet on the horny toad I would believe that they are undoubtedly patented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Cbj, find the patent number (which is located on the bag) and look it up on the u.s. patent office website. If its like the super chunk there will be drawings of the bait, the patent points of the baits you will find throught out the patent so read the whole patent. They will harp on these points over and over like i said before patents are hard to read but its not that hard to figure out the main points because they mention them continuously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipt Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 on a side note, do people really swear by zooms super chunks? ive honestly never even given them the time of day with all the craw / trailer options out there that look so much more detailed. maybe its time to give em a try? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Many fishermen are followers and fish what they read about through promotions. Again,there are so many good jigs and CNC injection trailers available- to buy and manufacture. To create a new product and recieve a patent is expensive. To defend a patent can be more expensive. To loose a patent infringment suit is devastating- FINANCIALLY! To the best of my knowledge,No one can copy & patent a unique product you've manufactired and have been selling then send you a cease and desist. Enjoy the very small profit in your own tackle business,the self-satisfaction of creating a unique product but don't copy and sell a patented product . You'll end up w/ your gonads in spagetti sauce- financially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbj11lbs Posted January 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 I enjoy designing a custom bait! I have a good artist haha. I want my whole product line to be baits custom designed by my team, but there are some baits you just cant re-invent the wheel on or change before its no longer that type of bait. So a few baits I offer will be store-blought molds, like dels 5" sfz jerkbait-its like a imporved super fluke, still cant figure out how that mold doesnt infiringe on the super fluke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 Thanks Al I'm never going to look at my bowl of spaghetti the same again. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveh Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 I love the super chunk.On back of my homemade jig it out fishes all my other Baits i make.In spring it is really deadly and at night in the summer.I use dels super chunk mold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 So a few baits I offer will be store-blought molds, like dels 5" sfz jerkbait-its like a imporved super fluke, still cant figure out how that mold doesnt infiringe on the super fluke That's because the superfluke patent expired a few years ago 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassinfool Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 I use the super chunk whenever I am looking for a bulkier profile while still retaining a somewhat subtle presentation since the super chunk tends to glide through the water instead of kicking like say a rage craw would. They catch fish, anyone who says they don't simply don't know what they're talking about or haven't utilized the super chunks in the way they were intended. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painter1 Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 (edited) I am in no way advocating patent infringement but I know something about protecting a business interest and shielding yourself from plaintiff attorneys. The keys are separation of entities and secured debt. The other key is to know that PA's are like debt collectors in that they rely on eliciting an emotional response from potential defendants. One example; Joe creates an LLC or a Trust and registers that entity with the State. This is simple and Joe does it in a couple hours. Joe then personally lends money to the LLC or Trust and secures that debt with the assets of the LLC/Trust. Brand Names or Marketing Names can be included as asset. Joe formalizes this debt with a Promissory Note (simple form). Joe makes a UCC filing of the PN. This is just a bit more complex but easy enough to do.. This legally puts Joe in the first lien position and creates a "poison pill" for the LLC/Trust, A PA contacts the LLC/Trust with a nasty letter, or the PA makes the mistake of sending this to Joe himself. Joe and the LLC/Trust ignores the letter and all subsequent correspondence from the PA. The PA, if unable to rattle anyone, must decide to spend money to file suit for a C&D order. Assume, in this case that a suit is filed. Depending on Joe's personal tolerance level this suit can be dragged out without spending money on a lawyer. Ultimately, Joe calls in the PN, leaving the LLC/Trust penniless. and judgement proof. Often, if the PA checks the public record, he will be aware of the poison pill and knows where it leads. Again, this all depends on a persons tolerance level for cold-blooded lawyers. One does not need to be a victim of the legal sharks. Edited January 8, 2013 by Painter1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted January 8, 2013 Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 A ceased and decist notice comes from a lawyer in a certified letter..It states that legal action will be instituted against you if you continue. If you do not respond, a suit is filed. Why jump through various hoops trying to skirt the legal system? Simply run a straight foward business w/out infringing on a patent. Every time an attorney gets involved it will cost you money- regardless of sneaky LLC's and whatever- a good attorney can get through the corporate shield if enough money is involved. I speak from experience using a trademark and patent lawyrer over a trademark dispute 25 years ago. The trademark and patent office in Washington D.C. approved the drawings and stated(in writing)the name was clear and never used. A subsidiary of a large corporation(no longer in business now) objected. My trademark lawyer insisted we could win this if we wen to trademark court @ the cost of 20K- that's 20 thousand dollars. I said do I look that stupid??!! Correspondence between attorneys cost me an additional $3500.00.The bottom line- i changed the name of the company and ate all the printed packages,shirts and hats w/ custom logos. BTW - they tasted like elephant & Donkey poo! You have to register any fictitious business name but no one can use you name. There is little profit in this business to be wasted w/ attorneys and legal manuevers. I'd much rather spend the money on custom,CNC injection molds. I can't imagine what a patent infrigement suit would cost today. The large manufacturers can gooble up the little guy in the snap of a finger. Play w/ fire and you get burnt! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbj11lbs Posted January 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2013 I am not trying to infringe on any patents or design baits (as close as i can to another without getting served). I am trying to make sure I dont get screwed like the super chunk vs mega chunk case-two different looking chunks but since zoom patented the little bumps and ridges the mega chunk got sued even tho the two have a resemblance factor of zero. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
