hazmail Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 Just had a thought, a swimming pool pump would be ideal here, compact, large volume X low pressure, flow can be gated with no effect on the pump and lucky me, my cousin is just about to replace his !!!- BUT then if you had a pool pump you probably have a pool and would not need a test tank !! Combine this type pump with the narrowed down central channell and it should work--try it outside first though. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaze Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 Dave, I hate to admit it but you are probably right. Butttttttttttttt, that Hill Billy tinkerer in me still ain't giving up. Pete, cat't wait to see what you come up with. What kind of GPH does a pool pump have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 Please, keep at it, we are all behind you Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) JBlaze--Not sure mate, will probably eyeball it tomorrow if he hasn't chucked it out--Pool pumps vary in capacities depending on the size of the pool but I reckon they are all 'high volume pumps' NOT 'high pressure' (there is a difference) and I think volume is what you want in your / our application. As an example this one on 'Flebay' is 240 l /min (92 G/Min) - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-Protege-Swimming-Pool-Spa-Water-Pump-Electric-Self-Priming-Pressure-Filter-/160832602095?pt=AU_Pool_Spa_Beach&hash=item25725ebfef BUT I would think it's better to go above your estimated flow rates, as with centrifugal pumps you can gate the flow all the way down to near zero with no effect on the pump ( some water flow is needed to cool the impeller only). Pete Edited March 7, 2013 by hazmail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenlures Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 I hope that I can explane my thoughts here. If we pump water in a tunnel below the testing water and it goes around and goes up a slide to were the testing is it will not be disturbed by the pumped water,like the filtering of a fish tank, hopefully leveling out and get rid of he turbulance. The pump will be submerged in the tank at one end. It will receive its water by the level in the tank. You just have to adjust the pump for flow rate. Now I can see you might need more water the faster you go so you might need a overflow system to hold more water than is in the tank. boy thats alot of typing for me just a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaze Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 Pete, If I am correct, your example of the pool pump will have a flow rate of 14400 GPH. That is 11.5 times the flow of the pump I used. I think you're on to something. That is great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) A rough idea, much the same as has been previously posted, maybe just up the pump volume X 10 ++++. "Dam" would probably have to be equal to the total volume of the remainder of the tank-- Maybe Dave could supply the maths????????? Secured the pump today, still not sure of capacity, and I don't get it until it can be replaced-- I'm going fishing for a week. Pete Edited March 8, 2013 by hazmail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 need height and width of test area cross section to do numbers. But, 240 liters per min with a cross section of 10" x 4" gives a theoretical flow of 6" per second. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 Pete - if you block the test area to the side of the tank, you will enjoy a side view too. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sallystrothers Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 Simple is good. After thinking about creating something like this I ended up deciding to just create a static tank. Its 3" wide, 12" long, and 11" tall. Found a nice 5' by 15' PVC pond liner to go inside. Will see how it works this spring. A bit too cold right now, it will freeze in my shop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglinarcher Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 Hazmail - It was very good, demonstrating everything that I have been talking about for five years JBlaze - the simplest ideas are always the best. I started drawing something up, adapting the idea to our requirements. I then realized that I was actually drawing AnglinArcher's design except with a stop plate to isolate the inlet and outlet, just like in the video. AnglinArcher - I think your design is as good as it is going to get, so congrats for that. Dave LOL then why am I not happy? I think that there is still a lot to learn yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglinarcher Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 JBlaze--Not sure mate, will probably eyeball it tomorrow if he hasn't chucked it out--Pool pumps vary in capacities depending on the size of the pool but I reckon they are all 'high volume pumps' NOT 'high pressure' (there is a difference) and I think volume is what you want in your / our application. As an example this one on 'Flebay' is 240 l /min (92 G/Min) - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-Protege-Swimming-Pool-Spa-Water-Pump-Electric-Self-Priming-Pressure-Filter-/160832602095?pt=AU_Pool_Spa_Beach&hash=item25725ebfef BUT I would think it's better to go above your estimated flow rates, as with centrifugal pumps you can gate the flow all the way down to near zero with no effect on the pump ( some water flow is needed to cool the impeller only). Pete Nice, very nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglinarcher Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 Simple is good. After thinking about creating something like this I ended up deciding to just create a static tank. Its 3" wide, 12" long, and 11" tall. Found a nice 5' by 15' PVC pond liner to go inside. Will see how it works this spring. A bit too cold right now, it will freeze in my shop! I think that you meant 3' wide by 12' long x ? Am I reading this wrong? I have seen Vodkaman (Dave's) test tank in videos and I have Seen Larry Dahlberg's test tank in a DVD. They went to this approach as well, but ................... like you, I then can't test lures in the winter. OUCH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) I am very happy with my 8'x4'x18" tank. No hard water problems here, the tank is just outside my workshop, remove two covers and it is ready to go. However it doesn't solve all the problems. I can only really study a lures action closely by shooting some video and editing clips together and this takes an enormous amount of time and effort. The desk top tank uses a lot less real estate. Flip a switch, hook up the lure, pull up a chair and study - I really like it and will probably build one when I start building lures again. AA - I understand your frustrations, but I do believe you are very close to a solution. We now understand the pump power requirements. The main issue is the turbulence and how to achieve laminar flow without strangling the flow. An added problem for any tank that I build, is that it has to accommodate hunting lures, as this is mostly what I build and I would need a 12" wide test area. My mind keeps wandering to a circular test tank, but this means the added problems of actually making the tank. Still, doable. Possibly driving the water with a washing machine paddle system, slowed down some. Dave Edited March 10, 2013 by Vodkaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sallystrothers Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 I think that you meant 3' wide by 12' long x ? Am I reading this wrong? I have seen Vodkaman (Dave's) test tank in videos and I have Seen Larry Dahlberg's test tank in a DVD. They went to this approach as well, but ................... like you, I then can't test lures in the winter. OUCH! Yes, I meant 3' wide. An additional consideration when testing lures is the angle of the lure to the rod tip (or line anchor). The problem with a very short line length is as the lure moves side to side the angle is over exaggerated and the forces perpendicular to the line are higher than they would if you had a lot of line out. With lures that have a large side to side coverage it really messes up the action to have anything less than 5-8' of line out. Does anyone know if a layer of padding is needed when laying down a plastic sheet? I was thinking of putting down some foam or something to reduce the sharp angles of the wood to minimize potential cracking of the plastic sheet over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglinarcher Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 Yes, I meant 3' wide. An additional consideration when testing lures is the angle of the lure to the rod tip (or line anchor). The problem with a very short line length is as the lure moves side to side the angle is over exaggerated and the forces perpendicular to the line are higher than they would if you had a lot of line out. With lures that have a large side to side coverage it really messes up the action to have anything less than 5-8' of line out. Does anyone know if a layer of padding is needed when laying down a plastic sheet? I was thinking of putting down some foam or something to reduce the sharp angles of the wood to minimize potential cracking of the plastic sheet over time. It depends on the thickness of the plastic sheet and the type of plastic. EPDM roofing and landfill material is pretty thick, pretty durable, and you should not need the padding. Still, the cost of a little padding is worth the investment in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 SallyStrothers - My plastic was fairly thin and I didn't use any padding. The first time you lay the plastic, you will discover that achieving a wrinkle free result is bordering on an art form The secret - lay the plastic sheet in the tank, making no effort to tidy. Next, add an inch of water, then arrange your plastic. Make sure you push the sheet well into the angles and corners, these are the parts that will be under stress. It is like wrapping a Christmas present from the inside of the box. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenlures Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Another time of putting my two cents in. While I was mixing up some plaster for dry wall, and during the cleaning process of the paddle I could see where this might work. You could see it gives out a big wherl pool efect and if in the middle of a tank you might just not have so much turbulance, plus it can be on a variable speed motor to regulate speed, can't wait for the snow to melt this spring so I can get outside to do some testing. Anyone ever consider this. Wayne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglinarcher Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I am very happy with my 8'x4'x18" tank. No hard water problems here, the tank is just outside my workshop, remove two covers and it is ready to go. However it doesn't solve all the problems. I can only really study a lures action closely by shooting some video and editing clips together and this takes an enormous amount of time and effort. The desk top tank uses a lot less real estate. Flip a switch, hook up the lure, pull up a chair and study - I really like it and will probably build one when I start building lures again. AA - I understand your frustrations, but I do believe you are very close to a solution. We now understand the pump power requirements. The main issue is the turbulence and how to achieve laminar flow without strangling the flow. An added problem for any tank that I build, is that it has to accommodate hunting lures, as this is mostly what I build and I would need a 12" wide test area. My mind keeps wandering to a circular test tank, but this means the added problems of actually making the tank. Still, doable. Possibly driving the water with a washing machine paddle system, slowed down some. Dave Dave, Macks lures in Washington State, USA, once built a circular test tank for displaying their lures at stores. It was not big enough for what we need, but it was a start. I contacted the company a week ago and asked them if they still had one and he wanted $300 for it, if I picked it up at their store. That is more then I want to pay for a tank that is only about a 12" deep and only about a meter in diameter. Additionally, I took a lure I am working on and tested it in my bath tub. I noticed that the action I got from turning tight circles is not the same as the action I got going in a straight line. If the lure hunts at all, the lure blows out "on the turn". I think that if we used the circular tank it would need to be pretty big and I think we are back to ground zero on that idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 AA - thanks for that quality feedback. The dimensions that you quoted are pretty much what I had in mind, so I can cross that one off the list Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Mac Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 What about a circular tank that is positioned vertical (unless this was mentioned previously)? o shaped with large pvc piping for the bottom 1/2- 3/4 with the opening/ lure testing portion on the top. In other words, just doing a 90 degree flip on the angle the water approaches the bait. I would position the pump somewhere just past where your lure would be tested, in an attempt to homogenize the cross section of flow by the time it comes around to the lure. Also, if the pump is creating too much turbulence, couldn't you turn the pump off once the desired flow speed was reached. I figure with the pump off, turbulence would reduce and become more consistent throughout as time passes, but still allow enough flow and speed to test a crankbait. Just a thought, I'm a fish biologist not an engineer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglinarcher Posted March 12, 2013 Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 A-Mac Can you sketch this up so I can understand? If I do understand, and I don't think I do, the angle that water hits the lure is critical, so I am not sure that this would work. Also, once you turn off the pump, the water will slow very quickly, so any design will require the pump to continue to work. Like I said, this answer is probably because I just don't understand your concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjbass Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 I'm sure you have all seen the fly testing tanks that are around. Here is a link if you haven't seen one. http://www.tubeflytech.com/Tube_Fly_Tech/TFT_Swim_Tank.html I don't see why you couldn't use this concept for crankbaits and even swimbaits, just come up with a bigger tube, etc. There is a huge variety of pumps that would work, both impeller and prop type.... Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglinarcher Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 The problem is the tube. For a fly, you do not need much lateral or vertical movement. The tube as shown permits only 3.5" max width, and this is not enough. Sure, if you are dead center, it will work, but you loose a lot of width with even a tiny movement up, down, or side to side. Worse yet, the volume of water required as the tube increases in diameter is directly proportional to the radius squared. So, double the diameter and you square the volume required. If you are using a diving lure, again, the tube is the problem, no place to get the dive angle and no lateral movement. Still, there is potential, and I am sure in time one of us will get it figured out. Thanks for pointing this idea out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaze Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 (edited) Was looking at this video, and thinking this one has potential, might work well with Pete's pool pump and a rectangular column Maybe 6 inches wide x height x little less than the length of your test tank. just my thoughts. rjbass, thanks for sharing. John Edited March 15, 2013 by JBlaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
