Dive And Dart Topwater Help!

[Aiden James Lures]

Hey guys,

 

I am trying to make a topwater bait that dives and darts like this fly I made last summer.  Any tips?  You can see the action I am going for in the youtube video below.  I think it has something to do with the marabou tied to the down curving rear hook, but I can't seem to replicate it with a hardbait that is heavy enough to cast well with traditional bass gear.  

 

Thanks in advance for your help!!

 

John

 

 

- These are not for sale, so please don't report me for advertising. -

Edited February 18, 2013 by AJLures.com

[mark poulson]

Really nice fish!

I'm guessing your leader is fluorocarbon, so it is probably pulling the fly down on the twitch/pull.

I would probably make a semi-popper with the same marabou tied to the rear treble, and use a fluorocarbon leader instead of mono, so it lies horizontal at rest, and pulls under on the twitch/pause.

Play around with the shape of the nose to get it to have a similar action.

You can make a smaller lure out of PVC that will be heavy enough to cast and still be buoyant.  With wood, it might be harder.

I've found that 5/16 ounce is about the limit of castability for a crank with a baitcaster for me.  

You might even fool around with a small bill to get it to dive a little, like a small wake bait.

I think the marabou is the key.  It looks alive at rest.

[RayburnGuy]

You might try a sloped head and ballast it so the bait sets in a very slight head down position. With the slight head down position the sloped head should act as a diving plane. That's where I'd start anyway.

 

Ben

[mark poulson]

You might try a sloped head and ballast it so the bait sets in a very slight head down position. With the slight head down position the sloped head should act as a diving plane. That's where I'd start anyway.

 

Ben

 

John and Ben,

That's exactly where I'm starting.  Thanks for the inspiration!

When I saw your fly, my first thought was it was a hollow plastic frog.

I think a pointed, thinner head will be less buoyant, and the weight of the line tie will pull the nose down, too.  A sloped head will get it started down on the pull.

I'm just wondering how to get that great erratic action.  

Normally, I weight walking baits just behind the center of the bait, so they're slightly tail heavy.  

The smaller the bait, the more tail down I want them to sit at rest.

But I want my AJLures fly lookalike to sit almost flat at rest, so the feathered tail has a chance to fan out.

Maybe I'll have to go to a single hook, too, or not even have a tail hook, just one in the belly.

Decisions, decisions......Hahaha

Edited February 19, 2013 by mark poulson

[Aiden James Lures]

Really nice fish!

I'm guessing your leader is fluorocarbon, so it is probably pulling the fly down on the twitch/pull.

I would probably make a semi-popper with the same marabou tied to the rear treble, and use a fluorocarbon leader instead of mono, so it lies horizontal at rest, and pulls under on the twitch/pause.

Play around with the shape of the nose to get it to have a similar action.

You can make a smaller lure out of PVC that will be heavy enough to cast and still be buoyant.  With wood, it might be harder.

I've found that 5/16 ounce is about the limit of castability for a crank with a baitcaster for me.  

You might even fool around with a small bill to get it to dive a little, like a small wake bait.

I think the marabou is the key.  It looks alive at rest.

Thanks Mark!!  Good call on the marabou...I love that stuff and use it on all my topwaters.  Its funny you mentioned the fluoro leader.  If you couldn't tell from the casting in the video, I am a terrible flyfisherman, and definitely not a purist.  I just use 10lb mono for my fly leader when bassin.  I edited out the part when I hooked my ear and my sons lifevest!!! Yikes!  So you see why I want one for my casting/spinning gear!  I will hollow out some wood to help with buoyancy and add rattles.   The little bill is a good idea too.

[Aiden James Lures]

Thanks Mark!!  Good call on the marabou...I love that stuff and use it on all my topwaters.  Its funny you mentioned the fluoro leader.  If you couldn't tell from the casting in the video, I am a terrible flyfisherman, and definitely not a purist.  I just use 10lb mono for my fly leader when bassin.  I edited out the part when I hooked my ear and my sons lifevest!!! Yikes!  So you see why I want one for my casting/spinning gear!  I will hollow out some wood to help with buoyancy and add rattles.   The little bill is a good idea too.

Here is a picture of the fly when dry.  It looks much different in the water.  The head is balsa, and the hook is a 3/0 saltwater Jig hook bent straight.  http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/media/gallery/album_6/gallery_26043_6_15613.jpg

 

John

[Aiden James Lures]

John and Ben,

That's exactly where I'm starting.  Thanks for the inspiration!

When I saw your fly, my first thought was it was a hollow plastic frog.

I think a pointed, thinner head will be less buoyant, and the weight of the line tie will pull the nose down, too.  A sloped head will get it started down on the pull.

I'm just wondering how to get that great erratic action.  

Normally, I weight walking baits just behind the center of the bait, so they're slightly tail heavy.  

The smaller the bait, the more tail down I want them to sit at rest.

But I want my AJLures fly lookalike to sit almost flat at rest, so the feathered tail has a chance to fan out.

Maybe I'll have to go to a single hook, too, or not even have a tail hook, just one in the belly.

Decisions, decisions......Hahaha

Have fun!!! Let me know how it works!  I too, am going to head down this journey.  I will keep the head shape the same, since I have a jig built to make it, for all my other mice, but I am going to make a convex belly shape for help with the dive and twist.

 

John

[mark poulson]

John,

I thought it looked like a mouse in the water, but I wasn't sure that was your intent, and I didn't want to open my mouth and put my foot in it!

Where do you get your marabou?  

Mark

[Aiden James Lures]

John,

I thought it looked like a mouse in the water, but I wasn't sure that was your intent, and I didn't want to open my mouth and put my foot in it!

Where do you get your marabou?  

Mark

I use Waspi Woolly Bugger Marabou in White.  The local fly shop stopped carrying it, so I buy it online.  It is the fullest and softest by far.

 

John

[diemai]

I'm a great fan of topwater lures also sporting a diving action , ....here are my three favourites :

 

 

Also I've made a few of knock-offs of this one many years ago , floats on the surface at rest and features a hunting wiggle , when jerked below the surface , ....but the action depends much on the location of the tow eye :

 

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://shurstrikelures.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/c3ssccbco.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shurstrikelures.wordpress.com/2011/01/31/shur-strike-darters/&h=2304&w=3072&sz=2216&tbnid=bHTYTA7gD4m0UM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&zoom=1&usg=__LDpj7DfyryuGv8cGV

T8ISvWV2jk=&docid=SULpFBjOT4j2EM&sa=X&ei=YV8jUY38FInntQacsoDADw&ved=0CEAQ9QEwAg&dur=4669

 

Here are some more homemade lures of mine , that might catch your interest :

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/gallery/image/2693-spinner-plugs/

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/gallery/image/2665-curiosity/

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/gallery/image/2655-curiosity/

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/gallery/image/2562-cuptails/

 

(there might be multiple pictures available displaying different views of the lures)

 

Can't quite figure out , whether it would be essential to tie feathers to your lures , .....in this case one might have to alter the lure's shapes , probably leave a little round extension to tie on the feathers ?

 

                        off to work , ..............cheers , diemai

[Aiden James Lures]

I'm a great fan of topwater lures also sporting a diving action , ....here are my three favourites :

 

 

Also I've made a few of knock-offs of this one many years ago , floats on the surface at rest and features a hunting wiggle , when jerked below the surface , ....but the action depends much on the location of the tow eye :

 

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://shurstrikelures.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/c3ssccbco.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shurstrikelures.wordpress.com/2011/01/31/shur-strike-darters/&h=2304&w=3072&sz=2216&tbnid=bHTYTA7gD4m0UM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&zoom=1&usg=__LDpj7DfyryuGv8cGV

T8ISvWV2jk=&docid=SULpFBjOT4j2EM&sa=X&ei=YV8jUY38FInntQacsoDADw&ved=0CEAQ9QEwAg&dur=4669

 

Here are some more homemade lures of mine , that might catch your interest :

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/gallery/image/2693-spinner-plugs/

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/gallery/image/2665-curiosity/

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/gallery/image/2655-curiosity/

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/gallery/image/2562-cuptails/

 

(there might be multiple pictures available displaying different views of the lures)

 

Can't quite figure out , whether it would be essential to tie feathers to your lures , .....in this case one might have to alter the lure's shapes , probably leave a little round extension to tie on the feathers ?

 

                        off to work , ..............cheers , diemai

I think the feathers acted like a rear down-curving tail rudder on the fly version which forced it down in a curving motion.  Thanks for the tips.

 

John

[Nathan]

Hey John,

Nice looking "Flure"....kind of a Frankenstein Dawlberg Diver.You may want to try Icelandic sheep fur instead of marabou.It offers the same great action but it is longer and a Lot tougher....Nathan

[Aiden James Lures]

Hey John,

Nice looking "Flure"....kind of a Frankenstein Dawlberg Diver.You may want to try Icelandic sheep fur instead of marabou.It offers the same great action but it is longer and a Lot tougher....Nathan

 

Thanks!  I will check out that sheep fur.  They sell it at the fly shop, I hope?  Iceland is far from my house!

 

John

[Nathan]

Lol...Yep...you can order it..no long hunting trip required.Not all fly shops carry Icelandic Sheep...Feather-craft.com out of St.Louis carries it...Great people to deal with.Let me know if you get some...Nathan

[mark poulson]

Nathan, 

Does the sheep fur hold more water than feathers, and make it heavier and more difficult to cast?

[Aiden James Lures]

Lol...Yep...you can order it..no long hunting trip required.Not all fly shops carry Icelandic Sheep...Feather-craft.com out of St.Louis carries it...Great people to deal with.Let me know if you get some...Nathan

 

I checked out your website.  Funny we both make mice/rats!  Is that sheep fur on your rodent?

 

John

[mark poulson]

John,

I have a mouse hanging in the garage.  I made it, painted it, and coated it today.  You gotta love PVC, Createx, and Solarez.

I'm going to take it out for a test swim tomorrow.  

I didn't put in a bill, which I normally do with my mice, because I want to work it with the erratic twitching you had in your video.

We'll see how it works with a triple white hackle feather treble on the rear, and a treble on the belly, too.

I'll post the results.

[Nathan]

Mark,

It will hold some water but not bad...I find that it is the under fur that absorbs water...I brush it out Of the Icelandic sheep before I Tie it in.....Icelandic and regular tieing wool are a little different in there make up..

John,I,ve been making those Rodents since 2001....It came to me one night while tieing up some flies.The fur on those is actually rabbit....The spinnerbaits I do are made with Icelandic sheep....I tie it forward on the spinnerbaits so it flares well....Nathan

[Aiden James Lures]

John,

I have a mouse hanging in the garage.  I made it, painted it, and coated it today.  You gotta love PVC, Createx, and Solarez.

I'm going to take it out for a test swim tomorrow.  

I didn't put in a bill, which I normally do with my mice, because I want to work it with the erratic twitching you had in your video.

We'll see how it works with a triple white hackle feather treble on the rear, and a treble on the belly, too.

I'll post the results.

Mark,

 

I think part of the action on that fly comes from the sagging of the fly line after it is stripped?  When I fish tubes with the flyrod, I get a bounce when I strip and a bounce when the line falls.  I am looking forward to your results.  I have never made anything out of PVC.  Interesting!  The fly in the video is balsa and I use hollowed Poplar for my other mice.  Where did you put the weight?  Is the belly concave like a kwikfish?

 

John

[mark poulson]

John,

I'm sorry, but I don't have a picture to post.

The bait came out 2 1/4" long, 1" wide at the tail, and 3/4" tall at the tail.  It weighs 17 grams with a #4 belly treble, and a #6 feathered treble on the tail.

The bottom is flat.  

The bait tapers from around midpoint to almost a point at the nose, and tapers down from the same point in a curve to the nose point almost at the bottom.

I didn't weight it, other than the twist wire hook hangers and line tie, and the trebles and split rings.  It casts like a bullet, so I will just play around with the lure shape instead of adding ballast.

I purposely didn't put a diving bill on it, to see how it swam without one.  I put bills on my other mice, to get more side to side action out of them, and they do dive on a med. to fast retrieve.  I made them out of pine, and they pop back up like a cork.  I also made them with plastic worm for a tail, and just a belly hook.  

The PVC trimboard I used this time is just as buoyant as the pine, and I think the feathered treble lets the new mouse move a lot more freely side to side, so it doesn't need a bill, except to get it to dive.  I would never have thought of using long feathers like that if it hadn't been for you balsa fly.

This mouse moves like a combo jerk bait and a Spook.  I retrieved it with an erratic, jerky Spook retrieve, and it darted and turned tightly.  On a faster retrieve I had to work hard to throw enough slack back on each jerk to keep up the Spook retrieve.  Otherwise, it has a tendency to just chug forward like a frog on a fast retrieve.

I am going to keep it like it is until I've had a chance to throw it in warmer weather, when I would normally throw a Spook.  I think it will get slammed.

I'll probably make a couple of different versions.  One of the will have a concave belly like you suggested.  That would probably get the nose to dive by itself.

I have Sat. and Sunday off, so I'll probably make a couple of different versions.

Thanks again for the inspiration.