Hunter Theory And Build

[Vodkaman]

These are my thoughts, opinions and ideas on hunting lures, after six years of investigation and building hunters. All open for discussion, you can disagree and add your own ideas. If you don’t want to read the technical stuff, you can skip to the last paragraph, but don’t whinge about it, there are people who do like to read this stuff.

 

What is hunting – a regular or irregular stepping away from the line of retrieval. The lure zigzags but the lure always returns to center and the retrieval is still basically a straight line.

 

What is so good about hunting – I believe that it is change of direction that triggers the bite. How many times have we seen fish trail the lure all the way back to the rod tip, obviously interested, but not biting.

 

When a fish changes direction, it cannot immediately change again. So immediately after a change in direction would be a good time to attack. I believe that the trailing predator is simply instinctively waiting for that change of direction.

 

What causes hunting – hunting occurs at transitions. This can be at the edge of stability, just before the lure blows out or at the transition between two different actions. At the transition, the lure tries to do something different but reverts back to normal action. This disturbs the regular action pattern and results in a change of direction.

 

Often hunting is seen on a lure when you increase the retrieval speed. Hunting I find is relative to retrieval speed. To explain this, I have to discuss with you my ideas on swim angle.

 

Static angle – when the lure is static, sitting in the water, its angle is determined by its distribution of weight of the different components that are heavier than water; ballast, hooks, harness, lip, top coat, eyes, rings – all have an effect on the center of gravity (CoG), a single point in the lure that all the downward forces are acting.

 

Then there is the center of flotation (CoF), the single point at which all the lighter than water components are acting, namely the bare body.

 

When the lure is still, the CoG and the CoF are vertically aligned and this determines the angle that the lure sits. If you remove the rear hook, the CoG moves forward a tad, then, when the CoG and CoF vertically align, the angle of the lure becomes steeper.

 

Dynamic angle – when the lure starts moving, everything changes. There are new forces on the lure. The static forces of weight and flotation are still there, but there are additional forces; the water passing the lip and the back of the body.

 

As the speed of the lure increases, so these extra dynamic forces become stronger, to the point of making ballast location quite irrelevant in determining the angle that the lure swims. Don’t get me wrong now, ballast is still very important and controls the action, how the lure wobbles, but has very little effect on the swim angle.

 

The forces on the lip below the tow eye are trying to make the lure swim steeper and the forces above the tow eye, on the back of the lure are trying to make the lure swim flatter. The lure swims at an angle were the two forces are equal.

 

Keeping all else equal, if the body is fatter, the lure will swim flatter, if the lip is extended, the lure will swim steeper and so on. This is why the eye position on deep divers is so critical, there is an optimum swim angle for achieving maximum depth. The eye position controls the ration of lip forces to body forces, basically acting as a fulcrum or balance point.

 

Effect of speed – if the dynamic effect on the lip and the body were the same, then the lure would always swim at the same angle and never blow out. But we all know that speed does have an effect on the lures that we build.

 

The dynamic forces on the sharp edged lip build up faster than on the rounded shape of the back. So, as the lure increases in speed, the lure swims steeper in order to balance the two dynamic forces.

 

when the lip reaches vertical, any additional speed will press on the lip and rotate the lure past the vertical. The effective area of the lip will be reduced and the force on the back of the lure will rotate it back again. The lure has now changed action and is porpoising or nodding up and down. The technical term would be pitching.

 

What has this to do with hunting – Like I said earlier, hunting occurs at transitions. Here we have found the pitch/yaw transition. As the lure reaches this transition, the lure will occasionally ‘bob’. This disturbs the wobble action, replacing one of the side movements with a bob and this is what causes the change in direction.

 

As the lure swims away from the line of retrieval, the angle on the inside edge of the lip become steeper. The steeper the edge of the lip, the more force is generated. The lure bobs and direction is changed back towards center. The lure always bobs on the steep side, so the lure always comes back to center.

 

How do I build a hunter – simply build with a lip that is too long and no longer wobbles and has the porpoising action. Trim the lip back until the wobble action just starts and it should hunt.

 

Dave

 

[hazmail]

HUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM--gota get that test tank going, still looking for a tank!!.

Thanks for your time Dave.

Pete

[Vodkaman]

Pete - Ha! You didn't think I was going to give you a simple one liner without hurting your head, did you

 

Dave

[Brent R]

Dave i don't make lures myself but i'm sure you have helped a lot of builders out. Thanks....There are a great bunch of guys on this form that take there time to help others out. I never was much of a reader till i found this site. Now I try and read as much as i can you never know when you are going to run across some info that you can use.

 

Thanks to all on TU

 

Brent

Edited July 10, 2013 by Brent R

[mark poulson]

Great explanation!  Thanks.

[bluetickhound]

Well, you were definitely telling the truth Dave!! I have smacked myself upside the head over the simplicity of this.... Doubly so since I actually have done exactly what you outlined.... Made the bill too long and trimmed back to get the action right. My problem was that I was trimming too much back at a time. The fine line between not enough, just right and too much cannot be overstated... Not only in luremaking but in life!! Thanks for posting this.

[Richard Prager]

incredible!

[Lure--Prof]

Dave you are correct within the parameters of a particular lure design, and I will say that those parameters cover a lot of lures; and you don't need me to tell you this  .  BTH is also correct that a little goes a long way when it comes to trimming a lip. 

 

However, when you introduce multiple ballast locations, particularly in lures with shallower bellies, and lower anchor point of the lip, along with using compound lip angles and various tow points through the lip, the dynamics, along with a certain amount of cause and effect of hunting, change.

 

I know I'm not being very specific here, nor do I intend to be.  I've been building lures a long time and have always been fascinated with creating actions which are not store bought.  I'm just saying that there are a lot of variables that can be created with lure body materials, diving lips, ballast, and varieties of hook, and tow point locations.

 

The term hunting is generally used to convey an aberration in an otherwise predictable action.  These aberrations may be an occasional kick-out that occurs at a certain retrieve speed, to lure that is literally performing two actions at once, such as a rhythmic wander while performing a tight X wiggle.  However, you won't achieve an action like this by building a conventional design, and trimming a lip that is a little too long.

 

That being said, Dave has done a nice job of elaborating on particulars with which a crankbait builder can use to build a hunter, and a basis for going "further".

[A-Mac]

Great article Dave.  I dig the engineering point of view.  I now understand why (at least part of the reason) why my lures hunt!  This reminds me of using my gopro camera on fishing trips.  When I go back and see what I did to get the fish to bite, it all makes sense! 

 

However, I'm still intrigued with the rythmic hunt.  From what you've experienced, is this action more reliant on the lure body shape?  Do you consistently get rythmic hunters or is it a mixed bag of rythmic/erratic.  

 

To further define what I'm considering rythmic, I consider the side to side behavior to be like that of a metronome.  Consistent, on time, syntonic action.

I consider erratic to still be side to side action, but random timing.  

[Vodkaman]

Prof - interesting post, good points made.

 

A-Mac - as you see from my video, the retrieve is not entirely rhythmical. But, as I said in the text, the speed is important. If you retrieve at the correct speed and keep it smooth and constant, a rhythmical swim would result. However, again as I stated, an erratic change of direction could be a good thing.

 

Slight changes of pace will change the rhythm.

 

Dave

[Nathan]

Great stuff Dave..Thank you!..Nathan

[Seeking 56]

Awesome thread Dave! 

 

You are bang on about " What is so good about hunting" .  We see it often when musky fishing.  Muskies are notorious followers of baits and when they follow to the boat an oval or figure 8 at boatside makes them strike 80% of the time.

 

s56

[diemai]

Thanks a lot for your elaborate explanations , Dave , ...great stuff !

 

                                               cheers , Dieter

[Vodkaman]

I hope anyone who tries this technique will report back with the results, positive or negative. Some video would be very nice too.

 

If you don't have a test tank in your yard, this is going to be difficult, battery Dremel with a drum sanding bit is a great tool for these situations. As bluetickhound hinted, you have to take the material off very gradually or you will miss the transition.

 

Dave

[hazmail]

Dave --you obviously don't know the value of a dumpster full of Iron ore--  And yes it does hurt my head, also made me think there may be a simpler way of

doing this  - but as you say a T.Tank would be the go.

 

For what it's worth, nail clippers (flat or concave) are good for cutting/ trimming thinner Poly lips.

 

Thankds Dave, you did get MY head going.

Pete

[jt_ncbassman]

Very interesting and valuable information for a builder.  My vocabulary has been expanded.  My family used to joke that I was ADHD as a kid,  but that goes away when we get into hydrodynamic principles. 

 

I certainly agree with all the cause and effects that you mention (the ones that weren't over my head),  and am relieved to know that I am not the only one who thinks about this s***

 

When I started building balsa baits,  it was because I had so much success one year on an old brass wired Killer B2 and brass wired Balsa B-2.    So, naturally, I almost killed myself trying to clone the old Bagleys.     Which is of course, next to impossible and POINTLESS,  because theres a way to make MUCH better round balsa square bills after you really start to understand hydrodynamics and the properties of balsa wood.

 

Anyway, I made some baits early in my building days that were similar to the old B's and they hunted like Ol' Red.   The volume/density of the bodies were near identical, but I was cutting my lip slots too deep to clone the Bagleys.    As my skills got better my baits stopped hunting as much.

 

I think the reason behind those early baits hunting so well....  lies somewhere in the grey, cloudy, turbulent area where that short lip meets that fat stubby body.     I think on baits like this,  the square lip catches juuust enough water to make the body turn downward.    At this point,  the turbulence at the face of the bait overcomes the control of the lip.    And the ballast?    Well,  it's like you said Vodkaman,  sometimes it's just along for the ride.   Remember, this is just a theory,  if you could even call it that. 

[jt_ncbassman]

I suppose this came to me when I started thinking about what causes any object with a CoG and a forward momentum,  in air or water,  to deviate from it's expected linear path.   Unfortunately planes crash all the time.    And my old Dodge truck hunts better than any crankbait ever will.  Especially on the interstate.  And every time I see those old crankbait gurus downstate throwing square bills,  they're cranking with gods speed.         

[Vodkaman]

If you crank most baits fast enough they will blow out. But, just before that blow out speed, the start to do crazy things. Like I stated, it is speed related. The trick is to bring that speed back to something that we can use.

 

Dave

[Mcleod]

nice post dave, apprieciate the effort and time that went into this.

Angus

[jt_ncbassman]

 I hear guys talking about bending the tow point of the old B's down closer to the lip all the time,  they don't give their baits a chance to hunt, and a higher chance of blow out.   You get a more pronounced action,   but it also puts the diving lip back in control of where the bait goes.      In my experience, in order for the bait to return to center and then possibly head the other direction or head back where it just came from,   the lip cannot be in complete control.    It blows my mind when I look at the first baits that I built....  .    I epoxied in twisted brass wire for a tow point,  and I didn't drill through the lip so my tow point was waaaaaay up on the nose.        Beginners luck.

[jt_ncbassman]

I would rather bang my head on a wall than keep trying to copy Bagleys though.   So I will certainly be studying and experimenting with your methods and with other member's methods.    Progress doesn't look back.   I say there's some builders here that would blow Jim Bagley's mind.   

[Lure--Prof]

If you crank most baits fast enough they will blow out. But, just before that blow out speed, the start to do crazy things. Like I stated, it is speed related. The trick is to bring that speed back to something that we can use.

 

Dave

Glad you said that Dave.  For years, if I had a lure that blew out at a medium retrieve, I used to always used to start working on it to bring it back in line to a commercially acceptable hunting action.  Eventually I began fishing with some of those wilder actions which could only be retrieved with what most bass anglers would consider a slow speed, requiring some discipline with modern baitcasting reels.  These lures have become my best fish catchers.  These lures dive quickly, running up to ten feet deep with .015" diameter fluorocarbon, and seldom get hung in the fallen trees I like to fish with them in my favorite lake.  It's an old trick to fish deep-divers slowly in shallower water, allowing the lure to deflect off of cover and dig right back into it.  I think my wilder hunting actions enhance this technique.

 

We talk about high speed retrieves and slow retrieves, and it bears remembering that these terms are relative to the equipment we use.  Most crankbaits used in bass fishing are retrieved with baitcasting reels and there is quite a bit of variation in the speed of retrieve these reels are capable of these days.  Modern small, light, baitcasters range from 25 inches per a single revolution of the handle up to 33 inches per single crank while reels marketed as "cranking" reels may be as slow as 21 inches.  When crankbaits first achieved popularity, only reels marketed as "High-Speed" were that fast!  This is worth remembering when someone talks about how they used to "burn" square bills back in the late 1960's or early '70's.  They (we) were burning up the reel handles, but weren't moving the bait through the water any faster or as fast, than what a modern reel would at a comfortable medium retrieve, or even a slow winding action with a 7-1 ratio. 

 

Spinning reels, generally speaking, retrieve faster than baitcasters, while the push-button spin-casters are much, much slower.

[Lure--Prof]

I would rather bang my head on a wall than keep trying to copy Bagleys though.   So I will certainly be studying and experimenting with your methods and with other member's methods.    Progress doesn't look back.   I say there's some builders here that would blow Jim Bagley's mind.   

Actually, we custom builders have a huge advantage over Bagley baits:  They were always built to a price point, where they competed against an explosion of plastic lures hitting the shelves.  We do not have to compromise our methods or materials for production purposes, if we choose not to do so!  Jim was always looking to build a better bait, but with methods that, at the very least, would not impede production costs.

[Vodkaman]

Lure--Prof - Thanks for that reply. I have to say I was a bit nervous putting that statement out there, thinking it might slap me in the face.

 

Dave

[jt_ncbassman]

Yeah you really have to appreciate the dedication of the folks behind the start up of Bagley.  I did not start really collecting until I learned more about the company and of Jim Bagley and Lee Sisson.     When you have 230 hundred Bagleys in your attic and 30 in the tackle box,   the last thing you want to do is make another one.