I've Hit A Snag With My Airbrushing.

[jt_ncbassman]

I feel like all I do here is ask questions.   Maybe one day I can answer somebody's questions but for now I'm stuck and hopefully somebody can diagnose this problem.   I am painting some of my flat crankbaits for a friend and a member on TU.   I really want to make these paintjobs look neat and clean.   My problem is,  the only paint I can get to "atomize" and lay cleanly are my transparent yellows/browns/etc.     When it's time to start spraying pearls for accents and black for stripes and dots,  it's terribly "chunky" and splotchy.    I try to thin it to the same consistency of the transparent paints that spray so well,  but when I thin the pearls that much,  the only thing that shows up on the bait looks like water with some pearl dust mixed in.    It seems like my only option for pearls and black is either chunky or watery. 

 

My airbrush is just the standard Paasche siphon,  bought it from Janns Netcraft for about 50$.   I am thinning all my paints with 4011 reducer and running my compressor at about 25.    Is this setup capable of handling what I'm trying to do?   Or do I need to invest in a better airbrush and a different reducer/ thinner?   I am just trying to get through this batch of baits until I can get my hands on some better equipment.

[dlaery]

I guess you are talking about water base, I would turn up the air pressure to 40 psi or a little more. I have constant problems with air brush and have to clean the tip. It helped when I switched to Auto Air paints (water base) except I have a lot of trouble with the "Process Blue" in Auto Air. I bought some reducer but it still sprays "coarse", The best luck I have had is with solvent base paints. I have a Paasche siphon and it's ok. I have an Iwata Eclispe that I like a little better. Then I bought some cheap ones that are Master Brand, pistol grip,top cup and they probably work the best, I think because they are top cup. BUT, they still spit an sputter after a while. I try to keep the paint clean. I have automotive size paint strainers and strain the paint. I have tried panty hose to strain the paint, I don't know, I think it helps a little.

[Vandy]

I spray with a siphon too. I just bought some folk art pearl and metallic paints and they sprayed very well at about 45 psi. I would try turning up the pressure a bit.

[RayburnGuy]

You don't say what size nozzle your spraying with or what brand of paint. It might be you need to go to a larger nozzle size.

 

Ben

[mark poulson]

Higher pressure should help.  Another thing is to minimize dry paint in the nozzle/tip by backflushing between colors.  I keep a bottle of clean water next to my paint station and use it to backflush my Badger siphon brush between colors.

Even between coats of the same color you can keep the tip and nozzle wet by hanging your brush over the side of a tupperware 75% full of clean water, so the tip is underwater, while you're drying the previous coat of paint with a hair dryer or heat gun.

A quick shot of air through the brush blows out any water and dried paint before you start spraying again.

Edited August 28, 2013 by mark poulson

[EdL]

My Paache VL came with 3 sizes of nozzle/needle combinations.  Like Ben and Mark says try the peals with different nozzle/needle sizes (don't mix and match needles and nozzles -just paired sizes) varying the pressures on a practice piece of cardboard or hardboard till you get the brush to spray like you want it.  I also do what Ben suggests and clean between color coats even though it may not always be necessary.  No use getting near the end of paint job and have the last spray sputter on it.   

[gone2long]

I'm new at this as well but I'll share what I've learned along the way. As a rule siphon fed airbrushes require a higher PSI in the neighborhood of 35-50 PSI in order to push the paint up out of the bottle and to the tip, low pressure works best with gravity fed airbrushes down as low as 15-20 PSI as the paint is right there at the tip. the higher the tip size the more consistent you'll be with paints such as pearls, glitters and definitely craft paint.

 

Craft paint will and can work with good results but needs more attention while reducing and straining as the craft paint is not milled down to the fine particle size needed for consistent results. these are rules that I've gleaned while doing countless hours of research but as with anything there are exceptions to those rules its a lot of trial and error. You didn't mention if you were experiencing tip dry, you don't have unlimited open time with acrylics and may be experiencing dried paint on the tip interfering with proper atomization. Some guys will remove the crown cap or tip guard for better sight of both the work and tip but I don't recommend this if you are still learning as one drop of the brush or contact with a solid object and your needle is trashed.

 

Good luck and let us know what worked out for you.

[rhersh]

Everyone here is spot on, on their suggestions. I really like Marks idea of the water and tupperware. I will give that a try. Thanks Mark

[Richard Prager]

I think that if you are going to stick with painting, I would consider starting to save for a good gravity feed. I like the iwata Eclipse CS with the .035 tip. Reason being, it only takes a few drops of paint to use and less air pressure so you are actually saving money and time. When I change colors, I backflush, pull, wet and and twirl the needle in very fine sandpaper and slide the needle back in. Takes all of 30 seconds. I have only taken apart the brush once in over a year to thoroughly soak in restorer. That was because i had a phone call and forgot about having paint in the cup. With this brush I do not have to thin any Createx, Auto Air or Polytranspar paints. I would have to for Createx White but do not use that any longer. I use Polytranspar Super Hide (which I found out about here) The Super Hide also lasts 3 times as long as the same amount as Createx White...It is also thinner and covers better.

I also have the Iwata HL CH with the mac valve and has a .030 tip. This brush is awesome except I find with that size tip, I have to thin allot of the pearls and some of the thicker color shift paints. I don't like to thin anything. It is time consuming, inconsistant and a PIA because I just don't like fooling with that stuff. I bought 2 NIB Eclipse's on Ebay for $100 shipped each. I think the average good price is about $125. This is what works for me after trying different things. Some people enjoy playing around and mixing, others don't. Just thought I'd throw that out there

[BobP]

Transparent airbrush paint has the finest particles, in fact they may use dye instead of paint particles in many of the transparents - so there's nothing to clog the airbrush.  If your airbrush has a tip clog and/or your paint is too grainy, it may be shooting mostly water and trapping the paint particles in the tip.  If you're getting clogs along with the watery pearls on the bait, that's probably it.  If no clogs, the paint is thinned too much.

 

I never used anything but the fine tip with a Paasche VL so I don't think it's about the tip being too small.  That leaves a few possibilities - maybe you need to keep the tip of your brush cleaner between colors or you need to step up the pressure.  If that doesn't work, carefully check the tip parts and the needle to make sure nothing is bent, broken, or split.  Lastly, it doesn't hurt to make sure you are using all he correct needle and tip parts together, if you Paasche came with 3 sets - they're easy to mix up.  A Paasche VL is not the airbrush I use nowadays (mine's an Iwata Revolution but I've seen lots of lures beautifully done with them so I know it's possible.

[RayburnGuy]

Not all paints are created equally. The pigments in airbrush paints are ground to a finer size than say craft paints. My main brush is an Iwata Hi-Line with a .3mm nozzle. I have no trouble spraying what few pearls and metal flake paints I use with it. I use Createx and Auto Air paints and they are thinned with 4011 reducer. The pearls I spray usually need no thinning, but the rest are thinned to somewhere between a skim milk and water consistency. Paints with larger pigment sizes can get lodged in a small size nozzle and raising the air pressure will only help you so much. Eventually the nozzle will get clogged even with added pressure.

 

It helps to think of painting as a "system" with one step being directly tied to both the previous and latter step. Most people wouldn't use a 16 lb. sledge hammer to drive carpet tacks (although I know a few who might try) nor would you try shooting a .50 caliber shell in a .22 caliber rifle. Each step in a "system" has to be compatible with each other to get optimum results.

 

just my

 

Ben

[jt_ncbassman]

Boy, am I learning.  I was thinking it was something I was doing wrong with the paint, but now I understand it's a little more complex than just thinning it to a certain consistency.

I had a little more success last night with pearl blue and copper,  they layed pretty cleanly (I got blue pearl all over my Samsung, turned this thread blue).    I turned my little hobby store compressor up to run about 35 and that seemed to help almost  every issue I was having trouble with.   I am not having as many problems,  but the more of these posts I read,  the more I understand what it takes to be consistently decent at this stuff.   I'm picking up every penny that gets thrown in here.    The personal experience posts are extremely helpful.    By the way,  I am shooting all createx and the pearls I was having trouble with were blue and copper, especially when I mixed those 2 together.    I'm not sure what size tip I'm using, the kit that I bought included three different size siphon cups, one canister of compressed air,  but only one tip.  

I can tell you that a 20 gauge piece of brass wire will almost fit.  

 

Another question -   I usually set the allen set screw in the same place every time,  and that's about right in the middle (on the first ring)   Should I be moving the "barrel" up or down depending on what paint I'm shooting?             

[RayburnGuy]

I shoot both of the paints you mentioned through a gravity fed airbrush with a .3mm tip and have no problems. With a siphon fed brush your definitely going to need more air pressure to make them shoot right for the simple reason that they have to pull the paint up and out of the bottle before they can be shot through the nozzle. If your planning on buying another airbrush anytime in the future my suggestion would be to purchase a gravity fed one. My first airbrush was a Paasche VL and since switching over to gravity fed airbrushes it no longer gets used as the gravity fed brushes just seem to work much better. With my gravity fed Iwata, and properly thinned paint, I can turn the air pressure down to less than 5 psi to shoot highlights and small details and it works great. This is not something I could ever get the Paasche siphon feed to do.

 

Ben

[jt_ncbassman]

That's wild.  I think I'll start looking for an Iwata.  Do you thin your paints with a certain brand, or homebrew?  I have tried to find a failsafe thinner but it seems like there is no such thing.  I spend so much time working on making a better crankbait, I really didn't want to dive into the world of glycerin and furniture polish but at this point I will do whatever is necessary to get the paint to spray right.

[gone2long]

Well there is no doubt that reducing paint can be a PITA but best advice is to find a medium your comfortable with at a good price then learn to test each color and what it takes to "break" the paint make sure you note ratio such as how many drops of paint to reducer, I would not jump into homebrews until you get comfortable with the finite issues with different colors. do yourself a favor and search youtube and view as much as possible there's some really good advice and explanation of many of the common questions you may have.

[BigLewers]

Rayburnguy hit it on the head.  You might have to get different size nozzles or even different tips.  Is your airbursh dual action or single.  Can it handle different tips and all that.  I used to use a Pasche but switched to an Iwata Revalution. I like it a lot better.  Its a top feed.  I have no problems switching back and forth between paints.  Pressure is the big issue as well.  I spray at 40 psi and sometimes bump it up or down depending on what it is I am spraying.

[RayburnGuy]

I thin my paints with Createx 4011 Reducer. Just keep in mind that I use Createx and Auto Air paints. Both of which are made by Createx. I feel the 4011 reducer would work with most water based paints, but can't say for sure because I have not tried it with other paints. I tried the Future floor polish home brew and while it worked it made me nervous to think about it setting up in the airbrush. Before all those that use the Future home brew jump on me I know it is an acrylic and is compatible with acrylic paint and can be easily cleaned out of an airbrush there was just something about it I wasn't comfortable with.

 

As far as mixing reducer and paint it would be best to keep a record of how many drops are used to reduce a given volume of paint, but I'm a "shoot by the hip" sort of guy and mix the reducer by eye. I try to keep the paint on the "thick side" so I can add more reducer if what I'm doing calls for a thinner paint.

 

This is just what works for me and I strongly encourage you to try different things until you find something that works for you. The way I go about things isn't for everyone and you might even find they cause you difficulties. That is why I always encourage people to try different things to see what is easiest for them.

 

hope this helps,

Ben

Edited August 30, 2013 by RayburnGuy

[gone2long]

Was fooling around today with my new scale and tested the weight of 2oz unopened bottles of my paint all the same brand in same bottles, now although I would agree that they are not precisely filled at least probably not I found that for instance white weighed in at 92 grams then I compared it to another unopened white that came in at 91 grams but was surprised to see that unopened colors be it transparent or opaque were all over the place all the way down to 64 grams so I'm quite sure that pigment is playing the role here and can give an idea of how to go about reducing your paint. Also I weighed an unopened craft paint and was surprised that it weighed, you guessed it 92 grams and craft paint is as thick as paste so that was a surprise for sure. Just some observations while I get involved with this.

[mark poulson]

Don't forget that multiple thin coats, each heat set with a hair dryer, make for a thoroughly dried bait, so you don't have any problems with trapped moisture under your top coat.

One thick coat is really hard to dry completely, so it holds moisture and stays soft.

[Richard Prager]

I have used both types of the homebrew thinners in the past. they worked well.. I found that the one with Pledge with Future, seemed to work the best as far as the homemade thinners....however, it does tend to force you to clean your gun more often. Proof of this came from laying my baits down and them sticking to the cardboard I lay down over my workspace. If i have to thin I will use the same stuff as rayburnGuy....Nothing worse than ruining a nice paint job and wating time over something that can be avoided

[RayburnGuy]

Mark makes a good point about spraying thin coats. Not only are thicker coats hard to get dry, but they can also lead to adhesion problems when they aren't completely dry. This is especially noticeable when using netting to make scale patterns. Thick coats can end up being pulled away from the bait when your removing the netting.

 

Ben

[BobP]

I have 4011 reducer and Pledge floor polish but it's very rare that I use them.  Createx says that it MAY be thinned with water as much as 50%.  If you thin it too much, the paint loses its ability to form a coherent film on the surface, beading up into colored water droplets.  If I can shoot Createx at 35 psi, which I always can with my .3mm Iwata Revolution, I don't want to mess with thinning it.  The real need for thinning comes when you want to paint a detail at low pressure, which might require the paint be thinned to spray well.  Other than that, I blast away. 

[bassguy]

I've noticed with some of the Createx paints (ie pearls) have a tendenancy to "chunk up" too. I've solved that problem by straining the paint through

a nylon stocking stretched over mouth of the bottle with the top in place.

 

 

Jerry

Edited September 1, 2013 by bassguy

[gone2long]

I've noticed with some of the Createx paints (ie pearls) have a tendenancy to "chunk up" too. I've solved that problem by straining the paint through

a nylon stocking stretched over mouth of the bottle with the top in place.

 

 

Jerry

Funny you mention that, yesterday I did my first little project while waiting for my blanks to come. I did the water drop effect on my exacto knife case and used for the first time my metallic silver Createx paint and like you stated it was chunky not hard stuff just like heavy glue like consistency would not flow in my neo with a .35 tip so I went for my .66 unit and got it to flow as I didn't have reducer for the wicked line, I'll have to give the straining a go and see how that works.

[RayburnGuy]

Metal flake and pearls can come out of suspension when allowed to sit motionless for a while. When this happens the flakes and pearls end up in a mass on the bottom of the bottle. This requires an extended period of aggressive shaking to first break up the mass that's accumulated in the bottom of the bottle and then get the tiny particles back into a suspended state. I have a feeling this is what's causing your paint to "chunk up".  Adding a ball bearing, or something similar, to the bottle will help break up this glob of particles. If you have any paint stored in glass bottles I wouldn't suggest doing this as the "agitator" can end up breaking the glass bottle. Don't ask me how I know this.

 

Ben