How Do You Know A Good Wobble When You See One?

[joliepa]

I'm new to the forum and looking forward to beginning to become a crankbait creator.

 

I throw a lot of lures in the river and recently i have become fascinated with trying to figure out why one catches the heck out of walleye and others seemingly of modest cost and quality doesn't. 

( I remember being right next to a guy who with nearly the same spot ,at the same time, pulled out 10 big eyes while I struggled with a lure twice its price and skunked).

 

I'm sure its mostly action.  After all in the river at night, the walleyes in question (many hiding in the rocks or roaming near the seams of strong current) couldn't get much of a glance of it.  and shape, and depth seem huge although almost everything I throw is either a near suspending jerkbait/shallow diver minnow lure.

 

But wobble seems SO subjective to me.  EVEN if you don't carving something, go and stare at the my goto baits.  

There is alot of variability amoungst lures and I've alway suspected it is something of a blessing to lose a few to river rocks.

 

 

whether I just throw painted up Knock offs (the current plan), or end up carving something--  HOW do you know whether the wobble is effective?  

 

Even the tags themselves seem vague.   Whats the different between a shallow diver/ jerkbait/ twitchbait and glidebait?  All these all different fundmental designers?  

 

"glade baits" kind of caught my eye and I looked up on the internet, and some of them seemed rather similar in shape to what I normally throw.

 

and let me add one last question to ponder.  Should I decide to start carving, and try to take control of this subjective, tricky lure quality.   How do you test what it will do?  yes, you can get a template going on, but if at the end you didn't like the action??

 

do you just start carving way trying to achieve a test?  can you just add the bill and test the lure just after carving? 

 

or do you have to whittle away , finish and hope for the best before you really know what its going to do in the water?

 

 

Apologies for all the questions. A newby! .  I'm sure I'll have more enlightened questions in time.  But the carving both intrigues and daunts me.   i could see myself wasting ALOT of wood and time.  yet even the clear coat step, something I thought would be easy is full of tricks and challenges...

 

Oh and BTW, If any of you have tackled foil minnow plugs for river walleyes, I would love to see your successes.  I know there's a gallery but its a little hard to seperate foild walleye lures from all the bass and musky plugs.

 

[diemai]

At first I'd advice you to take some time to browse through the topics in here , you'll already find a good share of info .

 

And if you are after a certain type of action , you should probably try and duplicate a lure , that provides that certain desired swimming action , .....it's just very , very elaborate to tell about crankbait dynamics , entire books chapters have been filled on that topic , ...still after almost 25 years of luremaking I can just roughly predict about the action , that a homemade crankbait lure would come up with , .........and , ....info in here as well , but one's gotta find it .

 

If your a newbie to lure carving , you might as well check out YouTube , ....there are countless lurebuilding videos around , just use the search function filling in approbiate terms like "lurebuilding " , "luremaking" , "luretesting" , "lurecarving" , "Kunstköder" , " Wobblerbau" , "Kunstaas",  ....etc. !

 

For example , ...regarding lure foiling , .......here is a good video put out by a friend of mine :

 

 

Welcome to the TackleUnderground , .......greetz , diemai

[joliepa]

WOW!

 

That is one Awesome Tutorial.  Almost exactly what I want to do!

 

I realize some of the questions I asked were not very easy to address.  I've seen both the glider and banana threads , so I see how complicated it is to come up with something new.

 

... and I know most of you use templates and lots of trial and error.

 

I guess the big question I have, is do you guys get to the lake, etc and just get a great vibe about the action of the lure?  Is there any strait forward criteria, or is it more of hunch.

 

IF you DON'T get that good vibe?  whats next??  would you have already clearcoated it and added hooks,etc?

 

and lastly would you be will (or somebody be willing) to roughly define gladebait,Jerkbait,twitchbait  are these more shapes or techniques or both.  

[diemai]

@ joliepa

 

I most likely test my lureblanks in the bathtub , at least during winter during local closing time and ice-up , .....this way I could still tweak on ballast amount and location , lip angle and lip size , also tow eye position , .... thus alter swimming action  and remaining buoancy , off course only within limited boundaries at this stage .

 

If possible , I'd stick all parts together without glue for testing , ...timber blanks sealed with propionate to prevent water sepage .

 

Some common models or such that I have experiences with , I would not test anymore , but just trim them with ballast in a waterbucket(though one can never be sure of bad surprises  .

 

Lure terminiology varies internationally , even within different part of the USA , I guess , .......what we refer to as a jerkbait in Europe , would be called a glidebait , a drop belly glider or also a pullbait in the USA , ..depending on it's general design .

 

The American jerkbait can be a lipped lure or even a soft plastic lure , as far , as I'm concerned , ........and I guess , that the term "twitchbait" was rather defined in Europe but the US , though no so sure about that , .......it would be a lipped bait to be best worked with little twitches , not stronger jerks , I reckon .

 

It is really confusing , as the terms seem to refer to the shape AND the way , one could work the particular lures .

 

Exceptions might be the lures falling under the European describtion of jerkbaits , as these cannot be worked attractively in any other manner but jerking them , ........the lipped American jerkbaits can also be retrieved straight to sport a certain wobble still attracting fish , which would also work for twitchbaits , I suppose .

 

But why is this terminiology so important to you ?

 

Good night , past midnight over here , ...., greetz , diemai

[mark poulson]

For my crank building, there are a couple of "truths" I rely on.

First, the more centered my ballast is at the front belly hook hanger (on two hook lures) the wider the X'ing will be (I call this wiggle).

The rounder the shoulders and back, the more wobble (side to side roll).

The combination of a thinner lip and a centered ballast in a flat sided lure makes for a very wide X, shallow dive, and no wobble.

A wider lip and longer will get the bait deeper, because it catches more water on the dive.

Since you are just starting out, let me give you some advice I wish someone had given me when I first started.

I am a carpenter, so I love to work with wood, but it is a very challenging material to use for things that spend the majority of their work time under water.

I'd suggest, since you're just starting, try and find some buoyant PVC decking or trim board to do you building with, since it's totally waterproof, easy to shape and machine, and strong.

Since I began using AZEK PVC (thank you JR Hopkins) I don't have to worry about sealing my baits before I test float them, and I can paint directly over the PVC, plus I don't have to worry about water intrusion.

So it has speeded up my lure building process immensely.  

And, thanks to Solarez UV cured resin, I can make and fish a lure in one day.

Like was said above, use the search feature to try and learn as much as you can from our mistakes.

But don't be afraid to make your own.  That's how we all learn.

Good luck.

[goolies]

For my crank building, there are a couple of "truths" I rely on.

First, the more centered my ballast is at the front belly hook hanger (on two hook lures) the wider the X'ing will be (I call this wiggle).

The rounder the shoulders and back, the more wobble (side to side roll).

The combination of a thinner lip and a centered ballast in a flat sided lure makes for a very wide X, shallow dive, and no wobble.

A wider lip and longer will get the bait deeper, because it catches more water on the dive.

Since you are just starting out, let me give you some advice I wish someone had given me when I first started.

I am a carpenter, so I love to work with wood, but it is a very challenging material to use for things that spend the majority of their work time under water.

I'd suggest, since you're just starting, try and find some buoyant PVC decking or trim board to do you building with, since it's totally waterproof, easy to shape and machine, and strong.

Since I began using AZEK PVC (thank you JR Hopkins) I don't have to worry about sealing my baits before I test float them, and I can paint directly over the PVC, plus I don't have to worry about water intrusion.

So it has speeded up my lure building process immensely.  

And, thanks to Solarez UV cured resin, I can make and fish a lure in one day.

Like was said above, use the search feature to try and learn as much as you can from our mistakes.

But don't be afraid to make your own.  That's how we all learn.

Good luck.

Mark

 

Do you know the typical density or Sg of the Azek PVC you are using?  On their website they state a Sg range of 0.45 to 1.4.  That's a big range.

 

Thanks

[scrubs]

Mark,

A couple of newbie questions. As far as centering the ballast on the hook hangar, do you use a standard percentage back for the front hangar? Or do you feel maybe it's the treble's water resistance that may cause this?

 

When you say a thinner lip I assume you mean material thickness or did you mean narrower?

 

Thanks,

bill

[scrubs]

Dieter,

Thanks for the utube search terms, never thought of a couple of them. Too bad I only took one semester of high school German and spent most of that playing Sheepshead (Skat) in the back of the room.

 

bill

[joliepa]

...

I am a carpenter, so I love to work with wood, but it is a very challenging material to use for things that spend the majority of their work time under water.

I'd suggest, since you're just starting, try and find some buoyant PVC decking or trim board to do you building with, since it's totally waterproof, easy to shape and machine, and strong.

Since I began using AZEK PVC (thank you JR Hopkins) I don't have to worry about sealing my baits before I test float them, and I can paint directly over the PVC, plus I don't have to worry about water intrusion.

So it has speeded up my lure building process immensely.  

....

I remember seeing this and.. yes I am intrigued.

 

I am particularly curious if with PVC, could you skip the thru-wire construction?  I mean it doesn't look TOO complicated but it looks time consuming.  

 

 

for THAT matter, looking at Janncraft, They seem to be mostly selling screw in components for everything. along with their basswood blocks.

 

it very much makes me think that Perhaps some folks Don't use thru-wire construction for basswood lures, even though every tutorial I ever seems to use thru wire.

 

 

anyway, my big interest in mostly walleyes so, its not like their get the pounding that a musky lures gets.

 

again thanks for all the advice.

[mark poulson]

Goolies,

I don't know the specific densities, but I do know their trimboard is almost as buoyant as some balsas.  The decking is more dense, since people walk on it, but it's still as buoyant as poplar.

 

Bill,

I use a profile or shape of a lure that I know works, and copy the front hook hanger location.  Generally speaking, the farther back from the bill the hook hanger, the gentler the X'ing, at least for me.

i should have said narrower, not thinner.  A long, narrow bill won't dive as deep as the same length bill that's wider, because it doesn't catch as much water to force the lure down as deep.

 

Joliepa,

Both the AZEK decking and trim board are plenty strong to hold screw eyes, or twist wires set in glue, so I don't do thru wire.

I drill tight holes and super glue swivels into the PVC for the belly hangers sometimes, and I have broken the wire before the swivel came out when I tried to remove one.

Plus, the PVC is hard, so it holds up to rock encounters, should you decide to do a rock "test" on the water.  The top coat and paint may chip, but no water penetrates, and it's easy to do an on-the-water patch with clear nail polish, if you're worried, to keep the paint from chipping more.  But I've continued to fish lures that have been chipped, purely in the name of science, on rocks, and the finish/paint job held up fine all day.

I have never seen a musky in person, but I have caught barricuda, a salt water fish that looks a lot like them, both in shape and in teeth.  I would use the decking, not the trim board, for any musky lures, because they are so strong and seem to bite so hard.  The decking is both harder and stronger, so it will dent, but it won't get bitten in half, and you can fish a lure until all the paint is gone with no loss of buoyancy from water absorption.

But the trim board is plenty strong for bass.  My biggest bass on a trim board crank was 8.39, in a club tournament.  I still fish that lure.

[nedyarb]

Mark, I completely respect your opinion. However I am going to give mine. I would start with balsa wood and seal it with super glue. Balsa is a great wood for beginners and the super glue allows for test swims immediately. When tried PVC I found it hard to carve and much more difficult to get a proper belly weight. It does not take much! I like PVC but it's touchy!

[nedyarb]

I would add PVC holds hook hangers really well though!

[wchilton]

I've used the white trim board with SG of 0.75 for a couple of projects and I like the workability.  It's like a hard wood but with no grain.  You have to be careful when sanding or cutting with power tools because if it gets too hot it will melt.  I have a little drum-type micro plane that I mount on a drill press and that lets you shape it pretty fast without ever melting.  Would probably be easy to shape with a rasp as well but I haven't done that.  It can be sanded to a very smooth surface that sheds water.

[scrubs]

Think Azek could be turned on a lathe? Does it dull tools faster than wood?

 

bill

[nedyarb]

I made some top water spooks out of PVC on a lathe. They worked great!

[diemai]

Dieter,

Thanks for the utube search terms, never thought of a couple of them. Too bad I only took one semester of high school German and spent most of that playing Sheepshead (Skat) in the back of the room.

 

bill

Hahaha , ....somewhat familiar to me , ........during my French lessons the teacher rather talked about French Cuisine but grammar  , so I've missed out quite a bit as well .

 

Used to play skat as well , when I was younger , .....but now I've forgot about it .

 

Traditional card game and extremely popular over here , ......at this time of year public matches are held in bars , hotels and community centers , etc . everywhere , .....for a little entry fee one can win forage prices like a pig half , bacon legs , smoked pork ,  geese or ducks , local style salami , etc .

 

Always worthwile checking out YouTube with lure-related terms in different languages , as you might discover real little gems , ......human ingeniousity does not depend on ethnics or origin , ......f. e. came across this one recently , a very cool jig made by an Italian fellow tinkerer :

 

 

Sorry for a little "off topic" , .....greetz , Dieter

Edited October 19, 2013 by diemai

[mark poulson]

Dieter,

Thanks for the video.  What a simple, clever idea!

I use lightly tempered sst wire, and I'm sitting here now trying to figure out how to adapt his tool/method.

 

I was reminded of how different European culture and food is when you posted the list of prizes for that card game.

When I was in Spain, on a Trafalgar bus tour with my two daughters, there was cured pork hanging, along with other local food, readily available in every stop we made.

Thanks for bringing back those memories.  Fun times.

[scrubs]

I guess I was way off topic too but it did get you to post that great wire twisting jig idea.

 

bill

[CarverGLX]

Lots covered above but.....

As others have said: what was the other angler using? How was he using it? How fast a retrieve? Jerking? Slow winding? Rattles? Color? Add this in as you decide what to do...

Consider known walleye baits. Especially those out of production. Rapala husky 13 as an example. Not everyone has one.

Think outside the box: "walleyes don't bite topwaters".... Caught a limit in 2 hours before on a jointed thunderstick and redfins. Worked great until secret got out. Not that great now

[scrubs]

Thanks for the info on being able to turn Azek. Anybody tried getting some cutoffs from a local decking company? Yes I'm a cheap son of a gun.

 

bill

[diemai]

I guess I was way off topic too but it did get you to post that great wire twisting jig idea.

 

bill

.............at least  .

 

greetz , Dieter

[joliepa]

Lots covered above but.....

As others have said: what was the other angler using? How was he using it? How fast a retrieve? Jerking? Slow winding? Rattles? Color? Add this in as you decide what to do...

Consider known walleye baits. Especially those out of production. Rapala husky 13 as an example. Not everyone has one.

Think outside the box: "walleyes don't bite topwaters".... Caught a limit in 2 hours before on a jointed thunderstick and redfins. Worked great until secret got out. Not that great now . May not be as good in a river due to ripples, current... Just an example. If you can find something others aren't using or don't have that catches fish you have a lot of fish to yourself. Reason there are a lot of tackle makers and a lot of people on here.

I like to build baits using a repeatable process using routers and "jigs". Having something you cannot make again exactly will leave you very sad at some point. There are always differences bait to bait but this gives you a better shot.

Tweak design with ballast position and weight, hook hanger position, bill angle, bill shape, bill length, line tie position. Work around with the last few until you have a bait that's right to the point of "blowout" at a retrieve speed that's needed. Rapala is doing what custom builders have done for years with skatterrap. Once again make everything as repeatable as possible. You now have a bait that will "hunt".

Sound like a lot of work? It is. It's fun though. And when you are done you have something worth the trouble. Nothing worth doing is easy.

Hope this helps.

Good luck.

 

again a great awesome thread.  I can't believe my first post was such a hit LOL.

 

I'm sure these are more silly newby questions.  but lets say you carve and carve, attach the lip and it runs poorly.  either no action or its got some crazy unfishable tumble.   do you start carving away hoping that some minor modification fixes it?   do you start bending away at the bill? and can you get the bill out somehow??

 

I'm assuming you've expoxied it in as I've seen in the tutorial.

 

---

 

as for as me,  I've been taking 'macro pictures' of some of my baits.  and looking online for minnow templates.... and I made an unexpected discovery.   Most of my jerks taper on the bottom 'strait'.  That seems Really big.  There's some kind of head, then a strait bottom,  sometimes the back into entirely curved and in other lures in has a strait section. (rod shaped middle).   Then the tail curves (top) and tapes into the but, that is lower than the bill (perhaps to ensure that the bait sits in the water bill down).

 

occasionally I run into more a banana design... I'm guessing THAT is about creating a slower wider wobble.

But a Tight fast controlled wiggles are the absolute rule of all my favorite lures. 

 

---

speaking of finding handy things in foreign languages.  hows This for a template?

 

 

I love how detailed it is! 

[diemai]

@ joliepa

 

A typical Japanese minnow , .......if you want a tight wiggle , you've gotta go for such or a similar shape , a curved body shape would wobble too pronounced , but not neccessarely slow(at low frequency) .

 

In that sketch there is no tow eye location stated , ....but tow eye position dictates a big deal of the lure action , ...just like lip shape , size and angle do as well , ...off course also general body shape and dimensions and even the buoyancy of the timber material being used .

 

For example for this lure sketched , ...place the line tie underneath the chin quite close to the lip , and your lure might possibly get to rotate and blow out , .....if not , it would at least rock from one side to the other very strong , the frequencey of this movement would be quite low .

 

Place the line tie directly at the tip of the nose , and your lure might not wobble at all but pull downward straight , .......though I think , that with this reasonably narrow lip it might still sport a subtle wiggle at a high frequency this way .

 

Greetz , diemai

[mark poulson]

Joliepa,

Building lures isn't rocket science (otherwise how could a carpenter like me make them?), and it's supposed to be fun, at least for us hobby builders.

If you stay with simple, proven lure shapes and configurations to begin with, I doubt you can build a lure that won't work eventually.

I have found that the most important things in getting a lure to run "right" are to cut the lip slot while the blank is still rectangular, so it's square to the body, use a centerline drawn after you cut out and rough shape the profile to keep you line tie, lip, hook hangers, and ballast all centered, try to keep the lip symmetrical and centered, and to trust you eye when you're shaping the lure.  If it looks evenly shaped to you, it is probably good enough.  Flatter sided lures make for less wobble (roll), and less flash, but they imitate shad better.  I stick with proven shapes and designs from baits that have worked for me in the past.

You can tune a lure by bending the line tie to counteract one that pulls to the left or right, and you can usually eliminate blowout (turning 360 degrees on the retrieve) by either moving the line tie or adding ballast between the front belly hanger and the lip.

And testing a lure before you paint it saves heartache.

Post here after you've tried a few, and there are smart people here who can answer the questions that only come up when you're actually building lures. 

So don't be afraid to fail.  Just hitch up your pants and go for it!

Edited October 19, 2013 by mark poulson

[CarverGLX]

again a great awesome thread. I can't believe my first post was such a hit LOL.

I'm sure these are more silly newby questions. but lets say you carve and carve, attach the lip and it runs poorly. either no action or its got some crazy unfishable tumble. do you start carving away hoping that some minor modification fixes it? do you start bending away at the bill? and can you get the bill out somehow??

I'm assuming you've expoxied it in as I've seen in the tutorial.

---

as for as me, I've been taking 'macro pictures' of some of my baits. and looking online for minnow templates.... and I made an unexpected discovery. Most of my jerks taper on the bottom 'strait'. That seems Really big. There's some kind of head, then a strait bottom, sometimes the back into entirely curved and in other lures in has a strait section. (rod shaped middle). Then the tail curves (top) and tapes into the but, that is lower than the bill (perhaps to ensure that the bait sits in the water bill down).

occasionally I run into more a banana design... I'm guessing THAT is about creating a slower wider wobble.

But a Tight fast controlled wiggles are the absolute rule of all my favorite lures.

---

speaking of finding handy things in foreign languages. hows This for a template?

I love how detailed it is!

Good example of a template. You can make whatever you want though. Should give you a general idea of how things go.

Like it's been said if you look around at other baits you will see that they are all pretty much the same. Differ in length curve weight.... But all have a bill, hook hanger, profile....

General rules:

Curved banana baits wobble wider

Flatter bill angle dives deeper

Shallower bill angle is harder to blow out.

Line tie farther out on bill is harder to blow out...

Basically amount of water creating pressure on x amount of surface from the point of pull creates the diving and wobbling force balancing of a crankbait. (<------mouthful. Lol)

This distance varies by shape of bill and surface area water presses on the bait.

Weight of bait and placement determines innate stability and presentation angle of the bill. (Pull point plays a bigger role)

Example: you won't see a dd22 with a line tie on the nose.... Too much area, loss of stability, blowout.

Shallow diver with tie very close to tip of bill.... Dead as well. More stable.

Rc1.5 wiggles more than bomber shallow a and so on...