Da big tuna Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 (edited) I am painting # 5 and # 6 Colorado spinner blades (chrome, copper,brass). I wipe them down before I spray. I'm using createx paint. I use the createx white for a base layer and use a variety of other colors as well. I'm top coating with krylon Clear coat . Some times the paint will wrinkle after I use the clear coat , other times it does not. I'm thinking this white is not playing nice with the others. Eventually I'm going to be spray coating with Component system seal coat. I have played around with the self etching primer the same fail when I use the white. Frustrated , disappointed and irritated if thats all possible . Any help? I've read about every forum that exists and short of lighting the whole batch on fire ,here i sit! Edited January 25, 2014 by Da big tuna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tekoutdoors.co Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 Did you heat set all your paints? I make sure to heat seat every layer of paint and never had a problem with wrinkling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da big tuna Posted January 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 I usually do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gone2long Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 An adhesion promoter would help as well especially on the polished surface of the blades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da big tuna Posted January 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 Self etching primer? But thats isn't why my paint is wrinkling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gone2long Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 Whoops my bad missed that, hum wonder if you have a bad batch of white are you using it straight up or are you reducing it with something? Maybe it's separating? will be interested to see how this turns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 It's all guesswork but two things often cause solvent based topcoats to wrinkle/bubble: if it is applied too thick, the topcoat forms an initial skin but wet topcoat stays too long underneath the skin in contact with the acrylic paint, causing wrinkles. Second, it can wrinkle if it was applied over another solvent based coating with which it is incompatible. Multiple light coats of topcoat can help with the first problem. If you go with a self-etching primer, you may have to experiment with different topcoats to find one that has compatible solvents. And it often helps to use coatings from the same family of coatings sold by one manufacturer. When I first started dipping lures in Dick Nite moisture cured urethane, it would wrinkle at the drop of a hat. I had put the lures on a rotator to dry and the urethane tended to pool over one spot on the lure and cause the paint there to wrinkle. It would also wrinkle if I tried to do multiple coats before enough time had passed to allow all the solvent in the first coat to gas off. It can take more than one day for that to happen. I solved the first problem by simply hanging the lures up to dry, which allowed any excess urethane to drip off the tail of the lure instead of pooling underneath the skin. I solved the second problem by deciding that one coat of the finish was enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 I would start off making sure you heat set each coat..and make sure all is totally dry before top coating...if your still getting wrinkling...start making changes....I'm assuming the Krylon top coat is a enamel...Enamels USUALLY play nice with water base if dry...Nathan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da big tuna Posted January 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 Im almost starting to think i'm rushing and not heat setting completely or sometimes not at all .I seem to want to rush it... I'll try again tomorrow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Glenn Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 My first thought was that the Krylon might be lacquer based and reacting with the water based Createx. Musky Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da big tuna Posted January 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) My first thought was that the Krylon might be lacquer based and reacting with the water based Createx. Musky Glenn I thought that too, I know a bunch of people doing it this way. I tend to paint too thick and I'm almost off to the basement to give it another whirl today. Edited January 26, 2014 by Da big tuna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) If your applying thick coats of paint then it can be really hard to get them dry. Try spraying thin, multiple coats and drying them well between coats to see if that fixes your problem. If not then one step of your process is not playing nice with another step and you may have to try using other materials. you said you "wipe them down" before painting. What are you using to clean them with? If your using solvents to clean them with then make sure the solvents have had time to evaporate completely before starting to paint. And it wouldn't hurt to hit them with a heat gun/hair dryer, or whatever you use, to dry the paint between coats. This will make sure the solvents have truly evaporated. It also won't hurt if you give the blades a light scuffing with 400 or 600 grit sandpaper. This will give the paint something to "bite" and will also replace the need for any adhesion promoter. I'm no expert on adhesion promoters, but have done a good bit of reading about them and they seem to be mainly for use in making paint adhere to hard to paint plastics. They're used a lot in the auto industry for making paint stick to the plastic parts so commonly found on cars these days. Ben Edited January 26, 2014 by RayburnGuy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da big tuna Posted January 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 If your applying thick coats of paint then it can be really hard to get them dry. Try spraying thin, multiple coats and drying them well between coats to see if that fixes your problem. If not then one step of your process is not playing nice with another step and you may have to try using other materials. you said you "wipe them down" before painting. What are you using to clean them with? If your using solvents to clean them with then make sure the solvents have had time to evaporate completely before starting to paint. And it wouldn't hurt to hit them with a heat gun/hair dryer, or whatever you use, to dry the paint between coats. This will make sure the solvents have truly evaporated. It also won't hurt if you give the blades a light scuffing with 400 or 600 grit sandpaper. This will give the paint something to "bite" and will also replace the need for any adhesion promoter. I'm no expert on adhesion promoters, but have done a good bit of reading about them and they seem to be mainly for use in making paint adhere to hard to paint plastics. They're used a lot in the auto industry for making paint stick to the plastic parts so commonly found on cars these days. Ben Ben, is a self etching primer considered a adhesion promoter? And would a guy heat that or should i let that stuff do its job naturally ? Thanks for your help , I'm glad you tuned in Ben, Your a great source of information and experience . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass100 Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 I had the same problem years ago but I tried Krylon white for a base coat. I quit using Krylon and no more problems. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) Do a test of your entire paint system before you paint another lure. Thin, well dried coats of water based paints should not react to most top coats. Really strong top coats, like the exterior water based urethane I have used, have such strong film strength that they pull as the dry and shrink, and can cause crackling on any paint they go over that isn't strong. Createx and other water based air brush paints aren't strong enough to resist that pull, so I put a coat of the same manuf.s interior urethane on them first, to make the paint strong enough to resist the final top coat. But it's great for enhancing the crackling to crackle finish cranks! Edited January 26, 2014 by mark poulson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da big tuna Posted January 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 Sitting here thinking, I usually have problems with the white. I don't thin it like I should and Its probably not fully dried. I will keep you guys posted , Thanks for all the help. TU is always a great source with lots of knowledgeable members Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gone2long Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 I can tell you that the adhesion promoter I use (duplicolor) is clear and I use it when sanding is not an option, I bought blades some time ago and they weren't sprayed with lacquer or other top coat that prevents tarnishing and I wanted the plating to show through my transparent paint and that was the ticket if your blades are lacquered and you plan on solid colors or opaque's then sanding would help if it is already coated if it is uncoated plating you may need the promoter to allow the paint to hold on. Sorry I couldn't post a link but I can't cut and paste on TU. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 I guess you could consider self etching primer to be an adhesion promoter in a broad sense although the two work differently. From what I've read these etching primers are mainly designed for use with enamel paints that are to be applied to metal surfaces. They contain an acid and zinc as the two elements that actually perform the work of etching. The acid "etches" the metal and the zinc bonds to the metal to form a protective coating. The color of the primer is usually gray so it would still need a base coat over it when you started the painting process. That is unless you wanted a gray base coat. I'm not familiar enough to say for sure, but I don't think using heat would give the etching primers time to do their job. I've painted a few blades and spoons with Createx and Auto Air paints and had none of the wrinkling your experiencing. I first give the blades, or spoons, a light sanding as described above. They are then cleaned with a clean rag soaked in acetone. If there is any doubt as to whether or not you have oil or other contaminants on your hands then use pliers/hemostats/forceps/etc. to handle them. After cleaning the base coat (usually white) is applied and thoroughly dried or heat set. For drying/heat setting I use a heat gun. It puts out tons more heat than a hair dryer and is much quicker. (be careful using it on plastic bodied lures as it will ruin them) If there's any doubt as to whether or not you've applied enough heat then touch them. They should be warm to the touch. And remember to spray thin light coats of paint as it's much easier to be sure they are dry. When the painting is done you can proceed with your top coat. If you think your current top coat may be contributing to the wrinkling problem you can try spraying a coat or two of Createx clear before applying your top coat. This will sometimes help solve the wrinkling issue. If you'll give the blades a light sanding I really don't think you'll need to buy etching primer or adhesion promoters. Just be sure that they are clean and free from any contaminants. hope this helps, Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 Ben, Is the acid/zinc combo what makes Rustoleum paints work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 Not sure Mark. If you've got a can of Rustoleum it should be listed in the contents. If not then they should have an MSDS sheet available online. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) Thanks. I'll check a can I have in the garage. Very interesting stuff, anyway. Thanks. Edited January 26, 2014 by mark poulson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da big tuna Posted January 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 The hammered blades are hard to sand and I think the pockets are collecting paint that does not dry underneath. I think if I hit the back of the blade with the heat gun that might help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 Try heating the blade before you paint it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 @ Da big tuna Yes, the hammered blades will be hard to sand, but the depressions in the blade shouldn't collect any more paint than the surrounding area if you are applying the paint in thin coats. If your spraying enough paint for it to be building up in the hammered depressions then your shooting too much paint on each coat. Thin layers of paint won't run to the lowest point. If they did it would be hard to paint anything standing in a vertical position. Depending on what the blade is made of you might try one of the wire wheel attachments for a Dremel. Copper and brass should be soft enough that the wire wheel will do a sufficient job of scuffing the surface. Chrome is fairly hard and I doubt the wire wheel will have any effect on it. If that's the case then you might need to use a self etching primer or an adhesion promoter. If I were you I'd do some reading about the adhesion promoters because I'm not sure of their effectiveness on metal. @ Mark I did a little research (operative word "little") and one place claimed some type of fish oil was added to Rustoleum. This was supposed to make it dry slowly which supposedly improved the bond between the paint and the surface to be painted. Nowhere did I find that Rustoleum worked anything like an etching primer. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 Thanks Ben. The label on the can I have was no help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
