seanmarty93 Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Hi Guys, I need some advice. I would like to run the through wire on a crank I'm making through the lexan bill of the bait and form a line tie atop the bill rather than having the line tie where the bill meets the bait. I am completely new to building my own crankbaits, and can't seem to figure out how to do it.I ran a search on TU search engine worded the same as the topic title of this post, and came up with zero results.. I tried to post a pic of the bait for a better visual of what I'm trying to accomplish but, my computer is not recognizing the format of the photo for some reason. Basically, the through wire exits the front of the bait where the bottom of the lexan bill meets the bait.The bait is shaped out of cedar, and the bill is not fastened yet. I would like to some how run the wire through the bill and form a line tie on the topside of the bill about a 1/2" away from the front of the lure. I hope that makes sense. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 (edited) @ seanmarty93 Just got some PVC hardfoam baits in process , so I've thought to shoot some pictures displaying the way I do the line tie on lip. I'm using 1,0mm stainless wire for my thru wire forms , so I'd drill two centered holes 1,0mm dia trough my lips , just for the wire to pass through very snug . Now I'd take an approbiate length of wire and start wit the line tie U-bend , after poke through both tag ends through the holes in the lip , ...the shorter end comes to sit upward(deeper in the belly slot) . Now I'd bend the kink leading down to make up for the belly eye , insert the lip and wire form to determine about the correct distance of the belly eye and bend this one to another U . The upper , shorter tag end I'd now kink into the belly eye's U bend . Now I bend the rear tag end accordingly to the pass of the belly slot , ..this comes easier on straight bodied lures rather than with this 4 1/2 " curved crash diver . Now I insert the lip & wireform again to determine , where the tail eye should sit , mark the location with a felt marker and bend this eye around a matching nail clamped in a vise . The upper rear tag end I'd bend abaout prallel to the lower rear end and also kink the very end back into the U bend of the belly hook hanger . Since the entire belly slot is going to filled up with 5min epoxy at final assembly , these tag ends inside of the belly U bend don't have nowhere to go under strain , ......I'm maybe a bit over the top with this , since most luremakers snip off the front and rear eye's tag ends somewhere behind the eyes , not leading them back through the entire lurebody and kinda anchor them inside of the belly eye U bend like I do . Yesterday I've trimmed the swim level of these PVC lures in a waterbucket(they are going to be finally assembled soon) , this is why I have already inserted the individually cut ballast lead strips and rigged hooks for accurate levelling on the water's surface , ......off course these lead strips would be glued in together with the wire form at finall assembly , ...after 24 hrs curing time I'd remove glue excess overflow with Dremel router bits , fine files and sandpaper . Also note the holes and deep rashes furnished onto the base of the bigger lure's lip base , ...this is for the glue to find better grip . Advantage of this hardfoam or PVC decking stuff is not being vulnerable against water sepage like timber(does not require sealing prior to the waterbucket trimming), ...disadvantage of this PVC stuff , that I have access to , are the enclosed airbubbles , that need to be closed with glue , putty or primer paint before he final painting is done . Hopefully some other folks would chime in as well , as there are a few little different methods as well , ...guess , mine is a bit more elaborate , but yet quite safe against failure . Good luck , diemai Edited February 16, 2014 by diemai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reelentless Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Very cool diemai.Thanks for the detailed response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Honestly I don't see an advantage for thru-wire in anything except balsa or maybe some musky baits (which I've never built). Not saying it doesn't make a stronger bait - just that I've never had a bass bait fail due to using standard construction. If you think about what fishing scenario thru-wiring is an advantage, I see only one. A fish hits your cedar lure so hard that it's able to break the wood body. The thru-wire lets you catch that one fish, after which you discard the lure anyway. How likely is that? I've never had it happen, even on 8 lb bass or quite a few pike. Not that I wouldn't LIKE the experience, but... A hardwood bait with properly epoxied-in hangers and lip will survive after the line has broken, or the trebles have bent out, or the strain has begun to strip guides off your rod, or the rod has snapped. OK, we all want to over-build our baits so they last. But I don't think they actually need to be immortal. JMHO 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajay920 Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I'd have to agree with Bob. Those bass I hit aren't going to warrant the extra wire and work that goes into a thru-wire construction. I have always just used .041 stainless steel wire that I bend by hand into eyelets. I did a thru-lip connection once and just glued into the body about 3/4" it held together when the lip broke. (plexiglass not lexan, I now use lucite). I have had two line ties come out but that was before I was using D2T and it came out because the wood swelled up and lost its bond with the glue. You decide. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajay920 Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 As always Diemai, you have incredible tutorials and have done just about everything. You always seem to have an answer for us rookies. Guys like you are what make this site so great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanmarty93 Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Thanks Diemai! I originally was planning on fashioning the wire as seen in the photo below. (finally got the computer to recognize photo format) I was trying to figure out how I was going to get it ran through the bill. Also, I had my doubts on how the lure would hold up when pressure was put on the front of the line tie while fighting a fish. However by bending the line tie in a "U" shape, then returning it into the belly slot with a 90 degree bend makes perfect sense. I will be filling the slot on the front side of belly weight with epoxy as well. (the rear I'll epoxy in a small sliver or cedar.) so I can easily adapt your method to my lure as well. Exactly the information I was needing!!!!!! Thanks again, I really appreciate it!! Well, I guess I cant upload photo, I'm getting an error message that my file is to big to upload. One of these days I'll get this photo thing figured out!!!!! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanmarty93 Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Honestly I don't see an advantage for thru-wire in anything except balsa or maybe some musky baits (which I've never built). Not saying it doesn't make a stronger bait - just that I've never had a bass bait fail due to using standard construction. If you think about what fishing scenario thru-wiring is an advantage, I see only one. A fish hits your cedar lure so hard that it's able to break the wood body. The thru-wire lets you catch that one fish, after which you discard the lure anyway. How likely is that? I've never had it happen, even on 8 lb bass or quite a few pike. Not that I wouldn't LIKE the experience, but... A hardwood bait with properly epoxied-in hangers and lip will survive after the line has broken, or the trebles have bent out, or the strain has begun to strip guides off your rod, or the rod has snapped. OK, we all want to over-build our baits so they last. But I don't think they actually need to be immortal. JMHO That's good to know Bob I've only built a couple of crankbaits and both of those were in fact balsa.Also, I've only been doing this for a couple of weeks, so I'm trying to soak up all the info I can. TU has been such a wealth of knowledge and I can't thank you guys enough for you time and advice! I was concerned because cedar, although much more dense than balsa, still is a bit spongy. I am building these baits to fish for bass, so they won't see the kind abuse a 40inch musky would dish out. what's your thoughts on the cedar? I've read about guys drilling in and epoxying some poplar dowels at the screw eye locations. I'm going to try that next. Do you thing that would be appropriate for balsa? Thanks!! Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aydensdad82 Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Thanks Diemai! I originally was planning on fashioning the wire as seen in the photo below. (finally got the computer to recognize photo format) I was trying to figure out how I was going to get it ran through the bill. Also, I had my doubts on how the lure would hold up when pressure was put on the front of the line tie while fighting a fish. However by bending the line tie in a "U" shape, then returning it into the belly slot with a 90 degree bend makes perfect sense. I will be filling the slot on the front side of belly weight with epoxy as well. (the rear I'll epoxy in a small sliver or cedar.) so I can easily adapt your method to my lure as well. Exactly the information I was needing!!!!!! Thanks again, I really appreciate it!! Well, I guess I cant upload photo, I'm getting an error message that my file is to big to upload. One of these days I'll get this photo thing figured out!!!!! lol Open the picture in Paint and click resize in the to left. Resize it to 800 x 600 then save it. That will be a smaller file size but still good quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 (edited) @ seanmarty93No need for poplar screw eyes dowels in cedar , just in balsa , ......but what I always take care of is to shape my lures in a way to position the woodgrain so that the belly screw eye would later pass through the grain at about 90° , not level to the grain lines , ...just adds stability to the eye against pullout .Another way to do your "line tie on lip" baits WITHOUT a thru wire form is to make a real long shanked so-called "twisted wire eye" , lead that one's shank through a single centered hole(could be larger than shank dia.), so that the eye comes to sit at proper location on top of lip , ...kink off shank at about 90° , so that it leads back towards lurebody .This twisted wire shank passes into a snug bore to be furnished into the lurebody below the lipslot and passing parallel to the lure's center axis and is epoxied in together with the lip at final assembly .Thoroughly epoxied twisted wire eyes hold up as well as screw eyes do , many lurebuilders around the world utilize these to save on cost of screw eyes or if they can't easily access them ,.........you need to take care of two things , when doing these , ....first is , that their bore should be just large enough to be able to insert their shanks (though may get larger in diametre close to the entry to generate some kinda "glue plug" there), Second is that epoxy glue MUST be applied to the inside of the pilot hole as well , not just smeared onto the eye's shank prior to insertion , as this way most of the glue would smear off when pushing or twisting the eye in and the glue bond would become unreliable . Off course the shank length to be glued into the body must be long enough to hold up , ....1" on quite small lures would be the absolute minimum , better exceed 1 1/2" and at least 2" on bigger baits , .......wood dowels required to resist pullout on balsa , too.Glad to be able to help some fellow lure carvers out with my experiences , ......greetz , diemai PS : Some videos on twisted wire eyes : ......and without a jig for serial production : Edited February 16, 2014 by diemai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Dieter, U Da Man!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanmarty93 Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Thanks Aydensdad, I'll give that a try. Great videos Diemai, I'm def going to be making those. I got my through wire in, only took me 3 attempts!!!!!! I took your advice on drilling a few partial holes in bill for better adhesion of the epoxy to the bill, great tip. I have to say though, I was so excited when I got the wire assembly to finally fit, that I epoxied everything in place, and it wasn't until I took these pictures that I realized I hadn't made the rear wire loop and return it back into lure body!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahaha, Oh well guess I'll be backtracking a little. Those through wires are a pain in the rear. glad to get some experience messing with them, but that will be the last time until I HAVE to use them! Edited February 17, 2014 by seanmarty93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanmarty93 Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Well I was able to get the pic up, but have no idea why its covering up the dialog in my message. Half way there!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) Everyone develops a routine on how to sequence building tasks based on their own experience. My routine works for me and my tools. Other guys build differently. The end result is all that matters. A hardwood plug in a balsa bait is a good way to strengthen the connection and several TU'ers use that method. I split balsa baits in half and lay the hangers and the ballast into recesses, then epoxy the bait back together with 5 min epoxy. The epoxy gives the bait a strong "backbone" that connects all the hardware and increases durability of the whole bait. Since all the hardware is connected by the epoxy, I feel using hand twisted screw eyes is strong enough. When I use a lip with an integral line tie, I use the method Dieter describes - a single hole in the lip with a twisted line tie which fits into a slot beneath the lip slot. I glue in the lip/line tie after the bait is painted, before topcoating. As a practical matter, I don't like gluing in the lip when I rejoin a balsa bait with epoxy. There's just too much going on and I don't want to take a chance of getting the lip askew or marred with epoxy when I do it. Plus with the lip out, I don't have to worry about masking it off while painting the bait. Mounting the lip is a critical step that needs to be just right, so I save it for the next to last step in building a bait. When I insert the lip, I spend time examining the bait from different angles to make sure it's aligned as accurately as possible. I use a slow cure epoxy (Rod Bond paste) that allows me a couple of hours to readjust alignment if needed. Edited February 17, 2014 by BobP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanmarty93 Posted February 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) That makes sense Bob. Sounds a lot easier than what I had to deal with today. I have a center line on the bait to help shape the bait equally on all sides, and also draw a center line on the squared off original factory edge of the lexan sheet prior to drawing out the shape of the bill to be cut out. I use a drafting stencil with various size circles and shape that I used to draw a symmetrical 1/2 circle on the end of the bill. The circles have tick marks at all 90 degree points so I can line them up with my center line on the bill which is as close to perfect as possible square off the back edge that sits against the bait. I cut my lip slot in before I start shaping the block using a jig to insure it is as square to the center line of the bait. While epoxying the bill into place I can look down the center line on the bait from behind and see how the center line of the bill is in relation to the bait. Even the slightest bit of kilter in the bill is easily detected by doing this. The hardest part for me was making sure the bill wasn't twisted out of square as far as lets say the left side of the bill was just a smidge low, and the right side a smidge high. I had to jam the corner of a razor blade on one side underneath the bill on one side to get it to level out. Plus, I was fighting the little bit of pressure the through wire was putting on the bill. Basically, it was a pain. I had rubber bands blocks, a clamp, the razor blade mentioned earlier, all holding things in place until the epoxy set. Fighting the through wire pressure on the bill was the worst of all. I can see already that I'm headed down a long road of trial and error to figure out what is best for me. I'm just thankful to have the advice and tips from guys such as yourself to eliminate some of those "errors" Edited February 17, 2014 by seanmarty93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 I make PVC cranks, but the process for making and installing lips should work for you. I use a band saw to make my lip slots while my lure blank is still rectangular. I make sure the top cut on my lip slot is straight, flat, and where I want it, to give me a true surface to glue against. If I need to open the slot more than the saw blade thickness, I do it by removing material from the bottom. That way I have a true square surface at the back of the slot, and a true flat surface at the top of the slot, so I can wedge my lip up against the flat surface until the epoxy sets. My lip wires usually put some upward pressure on the lip as the assembly is being installed, and that helps, too. A centerline on my lip's blue tape covering helps me align the lip with the centerline of the lure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Sean, If you don't have a bandsaw here's something that might help you make sure your lip slots are cut square in your lure blank. You will need a smooth jawed vice or some scrap pieces of wood to protect your lure blank from a serrated jaw. Hopefully you've marked a line for where your lip slot is going. Clamp the lure blank in the jaws of the vice while the sides are still flat and line up the cut line with the top edge of the vice. Now lay your saw flat against the top of the vice and start your cut. You will need to make sure that one side of your cut doesn't get ahead of the other side. A line drawn on each side of the lure blank to how deep your cut is to be will help you make sure that both sides are to the same depth. Mark brings up a good point about keeping the top edge of the cut straight and true. I do the same thing. I like to err on the side of caution when installing diving lips. If you get them too tight and have to force the lip into a tight slot it tends to wipe the glue away and doesn't leave much room for a good glue joint. Get them too loose and you end up having to shim one side or the other to get the lip square. If anything I like to leave my lip slots a bit snug when making the initial cut and finish widening them with a metal nail file or other small file that will fit into the slot making sure to only remove material on the bottom edge. What I call a perfect slot is one that the lip will slide easily into without having a lot of up and down play in it. This is what we called a "slip fit" during my fabrication days. good luck, Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 @ seanmarty93 I figure out , that you are extremely passionate about your new hobby , ........never mind about that forgotten rear eye , ......you can still wrap it externally now , ....won't look that perfect , but fish surely don't care . Greetz , Dieter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Sean, You can always add a prop to the shaft at the back and then bend a loop in the wire for the rear hook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 One more add regarding the twisted wire eyes : Just came across this brandnew vid on YouTube put out by a fellow German carver just today , .......nothing much different , though , but I really like the display of the interconnected eyes for jointed lures by the end of the clip , .........thought that I should share this one as well , ....hope , I'm not hijacking this thread too much . Greetz , Dieter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 He does a good job with the interconnected twist wires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 He does a good job with the interconnected twist wires. I had not even thought about such before , Mark , ...great input to me . Greetz , Dieter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Lots of smart people out there, Dieter. I'm just hoping some of it rubs off on me. Hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I do my screw eyes about the same way, just a "mirror image" of the video. I chuck a drill bit that is the diameter I want the eye to be upright in a vise, bend a piece of wire over the drill bit, grip the ends with locking pliers, and twist the wire by hand. When finished, I flatten out the eye with some lineman's pliers and cut the screw eye to length. I drill holes in the bait that are slightly larger in diameter than the screws so I can pack the hole with epoxy before inserting them and I "butter" the threads with epoxy before pushing them into the hole. You can do the interlocked screw eyes with either method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reelentless Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Anyone know why none of the videos posted show up for me? Mobile or full version? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
