Grumpy Gills Tackle Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 I am purchasing unpainted lures, painting them and then using a MCU to seal them. I am recently running into issues with the paint peeling off if my MCU barrier is breached. I am using createx water based paints. Does anyone have any suggestions for how to prep the plastic lure before painting or how to promote adhesion between the plastic and the paint? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Moreau Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Are you heat setting and letting the paint fully cure after each application? Are you applying in very thin coats? Are you cleaning the blanks? How many dips in MCU are you doing and how long do you let them set before the next dip? Even though createx is water based once heat cured it should be somewhat resilient. I have tried letting screw ups soak and scrub them and it is very hard to get off. I think that you are applying you layers too thick and not getting good adhesion to the bait. Then you clear with MCU and that adheres/ bonds with the paint. once you break the film layer/clear coat it peels because the paint is bonded better with the MCU than the blank. Personally when i first started painting all my problems boiled down to i was applying the paint too thick as i am inpatient. now instead of 1 or 2 layers to prime a bait i use 4 or 5 and heat set between each one. I sometimes clean the baits before I paint. I like plain old soap and water but some people like to dip in acetone. If you dip make it quick and don’t touch it. The acetone actually melts the top layer of plastic. After you clean them wear gloves to make sure you are not touching them adding oils from your fingers. hope this helps! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 There are a few paint adhesion promoters, one is Bulldog, which comes in an aerosol can. Some guys also briefly dip plastic lures in acetone to promote adhesion. But I think the main problem you're having is with the water based acrylic paint itself. If the topcoat is breached, acrylic paint begins to absorb water and expand. It will push itself and the topcoat off the lure eventually. There aren't many fixes for that. One is to change to lacquer paint versus acrylic. Also, I think that not all MCU's are created equal. When I use fresh Dick Nite S81 MCU, it actually penetrates acrylic paint and adheres to the lure body, forming a very durable monolithic coating. On the other hand, other brands of MCU I've tried seem to contain less solvent than DN and they will not penetrate into underlying finish layers the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Gills Tackle Posted April 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Thanks for the responses! I have not cleaned the baits before painting, so I will try that. But I also am most likely adding layers too thick and too quickly. I usually apply a white base coat ( all one layer) then use a blow dryer to heat set for 30 seconds or so. Then I move on to the colors and heat set between colors. I then heat set, add eyes and dip in the MCU Im new to airbrushing and maybe I need to learn to do multiple layers with the same color before moving on to the next color. Does a blow dryer heat set the paint enough, and does 30 seconds seem long enough to heat set? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Gills Tackle Posted April 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 I forgot to add that I have only been dipping in the MCU once. Should I be dipping several times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Moreau Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Yes I use a hair dryer too. If you have a good light you can actually watch the paing go from a wet look to a "flat" look when dry. for a light coat 30 seconds should suffice but probably not a heavy coat. When I used MCU i dipped a min of 3 times waiting 2 hours between dips. Just try a bait with the acetone first that you dont care about to test it. If there is fine detail like scales you might lose it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 If your able to completely cover a bait with one base coat to the point that it is completely opaque then I would say your applying your paint too thick. Your also better off, IMHO, to clean your lure blanks before painting them. All it takes to completely shut the painting process down is to have one bait that is contaminated with oil from a persons hands or any other source. When you start getting fish eyes that tells you the bait isn't clean. Fish eyes are spots where the paint pulls away from leaving an unpainted surface. Then you have to clean the bait and start over. When I'm doing repaints, or anytime I'm working on an unpainted plastic lure, I generally give them a light scuffing with 400 grit sandpaper and then give them a quick dip in clean acetone. And when I say "quick dip" I'm talking about in and out. Clean acetone is "hot" enough that it will clean away any oils as well as melt the marks left by the sanding. This gives you a smooth, clean surface to work on. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gone2long Posted April 9, 2014 Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 I agree with the others, you're going heavy and skinning over the base coat of paint when that happens it takes a long time to fully cure or "outgas", sealing with MCU is aggravating that process then when the surface is compromised it easily separates from the bait. Caution should be taken with heat setting your paint as that will also give you a false appearance that the paint is cured when in fact it's skinned over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Gills Tackle Posted April 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 9, 2014 Thanks for the responses. I will try to paint my next bait slower and allow more time between coats. And to be clear when I tried to clean the bait of paint to start over I realized that the paint didn't stick to just a portion of my bait, 90% of it stuck well. I guess I will also need to wear gloves from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 A lot of folks do wear gloves Grumpy. I prefer not to because I sweat so bad that it only takes a short time before there is a gooey mess inside the gloves. Washing my hands in hot water and Dawn dish washing liquid just prior to painting works for me. I also dry my hands on clean paper towels to make sure there is no transfer of any type of oils from a dish towel. I routinely handle lures while painting them and have never run into a problem. My painting sessions don't run as long as someone painting 20 or 30 baits at a time so if this is what your doing then washing your hands in hot water and Dawn may not work for you. I only paint a few baits at a time and it works for me without having to mess with gloves. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) Createx heat sets with an iron at 325 F to make it washable on T-shirts. Anything below that temp and you aren't heat setting (i.e., actually melting the acrylic in the paint) - you're heat drying it. Heat a plastic crankbait to 325F and it will explode. Be that as it may, it's still a great idea to blow dry every paint shot as you apply it so when you're finished, all the paint will be dry and ready for topcoating. Personally, I look at the paint while drying it and stop when I can see that all the paint's water sheen has gone. That doesn't take very long. When I use Dick Nite, I apply one coat because I judge that to be enough durability for my bass crankbaits. With other MCU brands, results may be different. You have to judge for yourself how much MCU is enough. I sometimes troll bass baits for stripers and one coat of MCU is not enough for that level of abuse. Some guys use 2-3 coats. You also have to work out how quickly you can re-coat a bait with MCU. MCU has a tendency to bubble if you re-coat too fast or too slow. One user re-coats just after the MCU has dried to the touch in a couple of hours; others wait at least 24 hrs. In this way, MCU is like auto primer that has a re-coat " time window". Most of us use a combo of products that were never formulated or intended to work together by a manufacturer. Guys develop combos of products that work by trial and error and they share them with other TUers. If you substitute a different product in the combo, or apply a product in a way different from what worked for that guy, you are in uncharted territory and strictly on your own as to whether it will work or not. I think that's the main reason that finishes, and especially topcoat finishes are so constant a topic here on TU - users throw something new or different in the mix and can't understand why it fails. Neither can we because we aren't coating chemists. We can only suggest what worked based on our own successes and failures. Edited April 10, 2014 by BobP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gone2long Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Createx "cures" at 325F the term "setting" is often used to explain drying with a blow dryer/heat gun which facilitates quicker dry times but just air no heat is recommended depending on the paint line you choose, heat setting although works can be a double edged sword if you over do it and that's where "skinning" can/will/may occur. I agree that mixing various brands and types of finishes can/will/may cause adverse reactions between the product lines you may use, I like to use a piece of PVC pipe as a test medium for not only reaction issues but it makes for a great way to test you newest color schemes without using an actual blank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kustom Krankz Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 I have found that a drying box is invaluable when working with mcu- mine is a plywood box with a door on the front , rack to hang baits inside,100 watt light bulb and a line voltage thermostat set at 100 degrees- set paint with a hairdryer as usual,when finished painting into the box for 15min., take out dip in mcu back in box for 20 min.. dip again if you feel the need and go back in the box. take out and let hang in the open air for 48 hrs. before handling. since I started doing this I have had 0 issues with any lures as long as the base coat of paint was applied correctly. I know to some it may sound like overkill but it works for me. if I have a bait I need to get done quickly I use epoxy-hope this helps- mike <::>< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) There have been several misconceptions about what it takes to heat set Createx paint. I suggest you follow the link below to the Createx Application Guide and read the section on "Curing" carefully. There are paragraphs detailing curing with a "Heat Gun", "Shirt Press" and an "Iron". Since very few of us have a shirt press, and running an iron over a lure seems a little impractical, I would suggest paying particular attention to the part about curing with a heat gun. Can a hair dryer achieve the same results as a heat gun? They definitely don't get as warm as a heat gun and since Createx didn't see the need to include them in their curing guide I'd think probably not. I would say that people using hair dryers are probably correct when they say they are "drying" the paint instead of curing it. Since I have been called out on this before I'm not going to say there is a certain way to achieve the curing process. Anyone that is interested can read it for themselves and come to their own conclusions. Ben http://www.createxcolors.com/PDFs/AppGuide_CreatexAirbrushColors.pdf Edited April 10, 2014 by RayburnGuy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickadoll Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 You need to clean plastic lures before painting/coating! You can clean them in a dishmachine or by hand. Or use some kind of Silicone remover.And then you need to use a plastic primer before painting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) Grumpy, I paint plastic crankbaits just like you describe without problems, with the exception that I wipe them down with denatured alcohol to remove oil or other contaminants before I start. I think your problem is that once a waterproof topcoat is breached, an underlying water based coating like Createx is gonna start to absorb water and expand. You have two basic options. Either stop using water based paint, or improve the topcoat so that it will not be breached. You might also give your plastic blanks a light sanding with 400 grit sandpaper to give the paint a better mechanical grip. Edited April 10, 2014 by BobP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodieb8 Posted April 10, 2014 Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 our resolve is a primer that bites. lacquer base. even a white lacquer spray bomb after wiping..even if the clears broken the paint should not peel off.. bob p is correct.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Gills Tackle Posted April 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2014 Grumpy, I paint plastic crankbaits just like you describe without problems, with the exception that I wipe them down with denatured alcohol to remove oil or other contaminants before I start. I think your problem is that once a waterproof topcoat is breached, an underlying water based coating like Createx is gonna start to absorb water and expand. You have two basic options. Either stop using water based paint, or improve the topcoat so that it will not be breached. You might also give your plastic blanks a light sanding with 400 grit sandpaper to give the paint a better mechanical grip. I will start to clean the baits before painting with a denatured alcohol like you say. I dont really want to go away from water based paints, so I also need to improve my topcoat I guess so it cannot be breached. Do you have any suggestions for how to do that? Right now I just dip in MCU and let it hang for a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcase Posted January 6, 2020 Report Share Posted January 6, 2020 Hey having issues painting a lure trying to get into it more paint chips easily when adding a stencil on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archie1477 Posted May 7 Report Share Posted May 7 having been in the tackle business for going on 40 years (yea I am an old salt) I cast all my own baits and use nothing but componets system paint prim coat color coat and then accent paint and finish with thier clear top coat. let cure between coats just couple hours and overnight with the top coat. Then you can throw it on the drive or what ever leave it in the sun for days. Tis iss the best paint I have ever used. I sell hundreds of baits a year and a few thousand jigs a season. you can find this paint at any good tackle shop or direct from Componet systems. try it. your welcome 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
