cadman Posted May 14, 2014 Report Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) Curt, I think this would be pretty hard to prove in court if you were called on this. Let's say you charge $10.99 shipping and the bait is free. I believe as long as you have your orders and receipts marked as such to the customer, who can say what your intentions are. There is always speculation, but that is all just speculation. Also at that price point or whatever you charge for shipping, are you going to give away a lot of baits? Don't know. Disclaimer: I am writing this just as a matter of fact. I don't want anyone on here to use my post as a "He said". Do not do this as it is not legal to sell other people's copied products as your own idea. I also would like to get someone's input on this as well. I'm sure no one in their right mind will give legal advice here. I just curios as well. Edited May 14, 2014 by cadman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 I'm pretty sure the courts would see through a dodge like that. Even if you offered one free with each of a different bait, they'd see through it pretty quickly. And you'd wind up spending a fortune on legal fees, yours and theirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 I agree Mark. Even if you could win the case the "little guys" like us would have a hard time matching the deep pockets of the major manufacturers. They could keep it tied up in court long enough that it would bankrupt most, if not all, of us. It does make for an interesting discussion though. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 I agree Mark. Even if you could win the case the "little guys" like us would have a hard time matching the deep pockets of the major manufacturers. They could keep it tied up in court long enough that it would bankrupt most, if not all, of us. It does make for an interesting discussion though. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltwater Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 This is my opinion and I don't want to offend anyone but, I must express my feelings onthe subject of patent infringement. I am a patented inventor. It costs $10,000 to $12,000 just to try and get a patent. Additionally you will have to argue with the patent office to show how your idea is different from other similar patents. Keep in mind that you will be up against patents that are registered at this time, from the past and from around the world. Each of these arguments for your case will cost $100-200 for reissuing your patent application. If you are lucky and are granted a patent on your idea it will cost over $1,000a year for maintenance fees. Typically, a lawyer will charge $500 -$1000 tosend out letters of patent violation. Giving away someone's intellectual property is distribution. Even if you do not earn any money from selling a person's intellectual property you can still be sued for distribution of that property. I personally side with the patent holder, be it little guy or big guy. Put yourself in their shoes and then walk the miles. I now ask, what would you do if people were selling or distributing your intellectual property without compensating you or giving you the recognition that you spent hundreds if not thousands of hours and thousands of dollars trying to protect? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadman Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 (edited) This is my opinion and I don't want to offend anyone but, I must express my feelings on the subject of patent infringement. I am a patented inventor. It costs $10,000 to $12,000 just to try and get a patent. Additionally you will have to argue with the patent office to show how your idea is different from other similar patents. Keep in mind that you will be up against patents that are registered at this time, from the past and from around the world. Each of these arguments for your case will cost $100-200 for reissuing your patent application. If you are lucky and are granted a patent on your idea it will cost over $1,000 a year for maintenance fees. Typically, a lawyer will charge $500 -$1000 to send out letters of patent violation. Giving away someone's intellectual property is distribution. Even if you do not earn any money from selling a person's intellectual property you can still be sued for distribution of that property. I personally side with the patent holder, be it little guy or big guy. Put yourself in their shoes and then walk the miles. I now ask, what would you do if people were selling or distributing your intellectual property without compensating you or giving you the recognition that you spent hundreds if not thousands of hours and thousands of dollars trying to protect? I totally agree with you. I was just curious. Like I mentioned I don't condone anyone to do this as I wouldn't want this done to me. Edited May 15, 2014 by cadman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt - NC Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Don't get me wrong. I don't condone patent infringement either. My gripe here is that what Z-Man is doing by contacting people is like the pot calling the kettle black. If you look through their soft plastics, they have clearly infringed on the patents of other bait makes. And yes... I will honor their request to stop selling baits that infringe on their patent. I just don't get why there are some other bigger companies still doing it while they pick on the garage or basement lure makers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 I just don't get why there are some other bigger companies still doing it while they pick on the garage or basement lure makers. I would bet it all comes back to the garage guy not having the deep pockets that large manufacturers do. When your operating on a shoestring budget your a lot easier to intimidate than someone with millions of dollars behind them. You don't have to look any farther back than when the A-Rig was the hottest thing going. There was one instance reported here at TU of them sending threatening letters to a teenager who was building them, but when the major manufacturers started coming out with their own versions of the A-Rig you didn't hear a single word about patent infringement. Patent infringement in this particular instance was a load of hogwash anyway as the A-Rig was pretty much a downsized copy of rigs that had been used for species other than bass for years. What's really ironic is how some of the ideas that have been discussed, and worked out, here at TU somehow find their way onto the production lines of large manufacturers. I know a couple years ago there was a good bit of discussion about downsizing glide baits to a more suitable size for bass. I think it was the following year several of the major manufacturers had their own line of gliders built for bass. I guess it's OK for them to steal from us, but they sure don't want anyone coming out with anything that even remotely resembles their products. OK. I'll get off the soap box now. Ben 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltwater Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 I totally agree with you. I was just curious. Like I mentioned I don't condone anyone to do this as I wouldn't want this done to me. cadman, I know you don't condone infringement and I would bet the majority of TU members don't either. Truth is, I never went after anyone who copied my intellectual property. Reason being: my inventions are stupid and not worth copying LOL Don't get me wrong. I don't condone patent infringement either. My gripe here is that what Z-Man is doing by contacting people is like the pot calling the kettle black. If you look through their soft plastics, they have clearly infringed on the patents of other bait makes. And yes... I will honor their request to stop selling baits that infringe on their patent. I just don't get why there are some other bigger companies still doing it while they pick on the garage or basement lure makers. Curt, yes some people are hypocrites and thieves. All we can do is show everyone who they are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltwater Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Rayburn Guy, the "Big Boys" are selective and also conniving opportunists who will grab what they can from wherever they can. Here's an idea: lets talk about some seemingly cool bait idea that is really dumb and of no value and watch the big boys steal it. We can then watch as they lose a few hundred thousand dollars on our loser con-job... Oh, by the way, did you try the bait I sent you? The one that blinks its eyes? I caught my limit in just a few minutes. Those blinking eye baits are the best and everybody wants more than one. I hope I can keep-up with the demand. MAN, I AM GOING TO BE RICH ! ! ! (wink wink) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt - NC Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 cadman, I know you don't condone infringement and I would bet the majority of TU members don't either. Truth is, I never went after anyone who copied my intellectual property. Reason being: my inventions are stupid and not worth copying LOL Curt, yes some people are hypocrites and thieves. All we can do is show everyone who they are... For sure. And based on what I've seen, Z-Man is one of them. I'll be telling as many people as I can about how they're operating. Not sure if it'll do any good or not, but at least the people will know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Rayburn Guy, the "Big Boys" are selective and also conniving opportunists who will grab what they can from wherever they can. Here's an idea: lets talk about some seemingly cool bait idea that is really dumb and of no value and watch the big boys steal it. We can then watch as they lose a few hundred thousand dollars on our loser con-job... Oh, by the way, did you try the bait I sent you? The one that blinks its eyes? I caught my limit in just a few minutes. Those blinking eye baits are the best and everybody wants more than one. I hope I can keep-up with the demand. MAN, I AM GOING TO BE RICH ! ! ! (wink wink) Yep, I got it and like you said it caught fish like crazy. At first I didn't think there was any room for improvement. Not until I thought about adding eyelashes to it anyway. I had to get down in the bottom of the boat to tie that sucker on. Now I'm thinking about adding a small scent dispenser to hold some perfume and might even try adding a little lipstick to this pig. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brock3798 Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 ZMan also contacted me recently, via email with a copy of their two patents attached, as well as another two PDF files showing proof that they had won a lawsuit against Renosky Lure Co. for patent violations. I was politely asked to stop making my bladed jigs because they were infringing on their patents. Their gripe seemed to be with the fact that the blade is being attached directly to the jig. Their patent mentions the "unique blade attachment method" several times. Using a split ring seems to quiet them down and gets them off your back. The problem is finding non-weedless jigs with a horizontal line tie that will accommodate the split ring, especially jig heads with a decent hook and a hook eye large enough to accommodate anything more than a size 2 split ring. If you buy the arky flat eye from do-it you can file down a base pole pin is it makes it flush with no hole this makes a non weedless jig perfect for the chatter bait with the split ring that's just what I do anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brock3798 Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 This is one of my chatterbaits that is actually an regular arky head mold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 If you use stiff flouro for a weed guard, you can make weedless chatterbaits with that mold that work great. I have friend who pours and does that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt - NC Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 This is one of my chatterbaits that is actually an regular arky head mold Your pic didn't show up. Would like to see one of your baits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brock3798 Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 Here ya go tell me what you think 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt - NC Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 Here ya go tell me what you think That looks really awesome! How did you get the hole for the weedguard to fill in like that? Did you modify your mold? Also, what size hook did you use and what size split ring is that? The reason I ask about the hook size and the split ring size is because I have some that I bought from someone but the biggest split ring they take is #2. I'd prefer to use a #3 if I could, to get it up into the 40 lb. test range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brock3798 Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 So first this is a regular Arky head I file down a base hole pin witch takes awhile ! I use a 4/0 hook and I think either a size 3 or 4 split ring they are pretty good baits ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apdriver Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 I just take a Teflon pin and place it right at the edge of the cavity so the lead doesn't run into the weed guard channel. Works great. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt - NC Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 Cool. Thanks for the info guys! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt - NC Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 If you use stiff flouro for a weed guard, you can make weedless chatterbaits with that mold that work great. I have friend who pours and does that. Mark, do you have any pics of this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 I'll ask him for one and post it when I have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 Mark, do you have any pics of this? Curt, I asked him and he said he doesn't want me posting a picture. I guess he wants to keep it a "secret". Go figure! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt - NC Posted May 21, 2014 Report Share Posted May 21, 2014 Curt, I asked him and he said he doesn't want me posting a picture. I guess he wants to keep it a "secret". Go figure! No problem, Mark. Thanks for trying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
