Couple Questions?

[barr5150]

Curious if anyone has seen this video?

 

 

 

 

I came across it yesterday and now I have a few questions. 1st he's epoxies his screw hangers directly into the balsa without using a harder wood dowel. I thought that was a no, no? It's one of the reasons I use poplar instead of balsa just to get around making plugs for the hook hangers and line tie. 2nd he doesn't seal the wood prior to priming. He mentiones in the video that the enamel acts like a sealer and a primer. I seal, depending on the product, at least 2-3 times before priming. Am I wasting to much time? Just curious what everyone thinks.

[HAWGFAN]

No need for the dowel on the hangers.  I use a medium CA, instead of epoxy.  Instead of drilling the hole for the twisted wire, I just press in the hole with a metal BBQ skewer that is a little larger diameter than hanger.  It shouldn't really matter how you make your holes.  I just like to use hand tools.  The only thing I use a power tool for is to cut out the shape, and cut the bill slot with a scroll saw.  He clipped the wire because it was a bit long.  I intentionally leave mine 1/4" long, or so.  It presses easily into the wood, and should carry some glue with it.  That's just preference, not necessary I'm sure.  I try to get as much glue as I can to run into the hanger hole, coat my wire, then press it in.  If you have doubts, do a test run on scrap piece of balsa.  The wood will fail before the hanger pulls out.

 

As for the enamel...I think most would recommend a sealer that does more to harden the balsa.  I use propionate, or epoxy.  Many here use thin CA.  I'm sure the enamel is a fine sealer.  I just like to have something more resistant to rocks, in the event of a top coat failure.  That could help you finish the day without water-logging your favorite bait. You don't have to give up on a hot bite, and you can repair the paint and top coat later.

[barr5150]

Thanks for the input. I bought some balsa awhile back and have yet to use it. Think I'm gonna give it a go. 

[BobP]

These are "Player's Choice" issues.  And it boils down to how durable you want your balsa crankbait to be.  As far as hangers go, I don't do a one-piece thru-wire. I split the blank, lay the hardware into grooves scored into the balsa, then glue it together with epoxy.  I feel this provides a continuous epoxy 'backbone' through the lure and functionally connects all of the hangers, which are long hand twisted screw eyes.  I don't use poplar dowels 'cause I never learned how to do that and I think seating the hardware in solid epoxy is plenty strong enough.  I've not had a balsa bait broken in a decade, so it seems to work OK for me.

 

As far as "sealing" goes, it's easy to confuse base coatings.  Sealers seal and waterproof the wood grain so it doesn't raise up when hit by paint.  It may or may not provide reinforcement to the wood.  Many of us don't think that's enough for a soft balsa crankbait.  Like HAWGFAN, I use a coating of epoxy, UV cured polyester, or multiple dips in propionate to seal the wood, waterproof it, and most importantly to harden and strengthen the soft wood surface.  Some guys like super gluing the raw wood, but they usually add epoxy immediately after.

 

I understand why shops that sell baits build them as shown in the video - time and materials cost them money and the way they build them is "accepted practice" among many commercial shops.  I got into the bait building hobby mostly because i wanted to fish wood baits that would last better than the fragile models I was buying 15 yrs ago.  You have to decide for yourself how much durability is enough. 

[HAWGFAN]

I'm glad BobP mentioned his wire installation technique.  I do the same thing on my round bodies baits. They are made from two 1/2" pieces of balsa.  I make flatside baits from one 1/2" piece, and use the steps mentioned above.  I've yet to have a failure with either.  Putting components in a two piece bait does take a little longer, but I'm a hobby builder that isn't interested in much volume.  My customers understand this and are fine with the lead time.  So far, I just make all my baits to order.  I can see how time savings would help if you were trying to make a lot of baits to try and sell later, or took large orders. 

[barr5150]

I'm probably somewhere in the 200 bait per year range. I'm hoping with some luck and the shows I have scheduled this upcoming winter to double that quantity. As you guys know, building lures from scratch is very time consuming and making a profit can be difficult. I guess I basically asked the original question to make sure I wasn't doing extra steps that I didn't need too. Anyway to speed the process up without sacrificing quality is a plus. For a year or so now I only use poplar but I'd like to try a few of my production lure designs in balsa just to see if the action is any better. I didn't realize balsa would hold hook hangers without the support of a harder wood dowel. I think I'll set a couple and do some pull tests just to confirm. 

 

Sealing/priming is another question. I have been using 3 coats of minwax sanding sealer and scuffing the lure between each coat. That takes alot of time. I have heard of guys using epoxy or solarez and such as a sealer but to me you still have to sand it to get a bit of a "scratch" on the surface so the primer would stick. After sanding how much is still left on the lure? I mean how much actually soaks into the wood? The video I posted got my wheels turning. Sherwin Williams recently put a store up real close to my house. I've looked around on their website and I think they make a few products that would work as a sealer/primer in one. I'm going to stop in there and see if they have any suggestions? 

[RayburnGuy]

Don't forget that there are several different grades of balsa. It's graded by weight and if memory serves me correctly there are three different grades. The lighter it is the less dense it is. Lures made out of the lightest material deflect off cover much better, but usually don't last as long since it's not as sturdy as the heavier grades. That's why most of us try to reinforce our balsa lures as much as possible.

 

Google "wood density chart" or something similar and it should show you the different grades. Just remember that most suppliers charge more for specific grades as these have to be hand picked which adds to the cost.

 

Ben

[nedyarb]

The fastest and easiest sealer is super glue. I buy the super thin hobby lobby brand. It's 4$ and I can probably seal 60 lures with it.

[BobP]

I don't care how much an undercoating soaks into raw balsa - as long as it never lifts off the wood.  Epoxy, propionate, and Solarez all work fine for me.  I would ask how fast is it to apply 3 coats of minwax sealer, each sanded versus one coat of Devcon 2 Ton epoxy?  Devcon cures to touch in 5-6 hrs and is ready to sand in about 12 hrs.  I dip 6-8 times in propionate with a couple of minutes between dips and then let it harden overnight.  You can apply Solarez, let it level out for a few minutes on a lure rotator, then cure it in 3 minutes in a nail UV box or just set the rotator out in the sun for half an hour - voila, you're ready to lightly sand and begin painting in an hour max.

 

Superglue is certainly fast and it makes a hard surface but I'm leery about sanding it out and getting down to raw wood, and I'm uncertain how its impact resistance is versus the other options. 

[BobP]

Like Ben says, balsa density varies greatly, from 6 lbs/cu ft to 18 lbs, with 12 lbs the average.  The more dense it is, the harder it is and most crankbait companies want to use "hard balsa" just because the baits require less reinforcement and last longer with typical commercial build techniques.  Hobby builders aren't limited by business concerns.  I used 6 lb "competition balsa" for years because it was what I first ordered as an ignorant newby builder.  Makes a damn fine shallow crankbait if you want lively action and with the right build techniques, they last just fine.  But it takes more work and more time.  The bottom line on any wood crank is that as long as the topcoat remains intact, everything under it will be just fine.  Once the topcoat is compromised, failure is on its way sooner or later - usually sooner.

Edited June 11, 2014 by BobP

[barr5150]

OK, last night I checked out the balsa wood I bought awhile back. The packing slip doesn't show what density I purchased but I'm guessing it's more in the 6 lbs/cu range. The stuff is super light. Anyway, I cut a couple patterns out of it and now I understand why you would need to seal it, or make it harder. It almost acts like foam board as opposed to wood. I can't imagine being able to cast a plug made from balsa? It's not for me. With that said, I'm sticking to poplar for now. 

 

After work yesterday I stopped by Sherwin Williams and talked to the sales guy. I left with this -

 

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/home-builders/products/catalog/multipurpose-waterbased-acrylicalkyd-primer/

 

Last night I dipped a few raw, sanded poplar blanks. This morning they were dry and ready to scuff up. The product is pretty thick but runs off the blank well and really soaks into the wood and levels out nicely. They may need another coat but I won't know until after work tonight when I get a chance to mess with them again. I will say, I was using a oil based enamel (like in the video) and it works, but takes forever to dry. This stuff might make my life a little easier? I plan to set a couple of the blanks in a bucket of water tonight also to see if they want to swell up or not after a couple days.

[HAWGFAN]

If time allows, give the balsa a try.  Don't let the light weight fool you.  By the time you get it sealed, coated, and say 5 grams of ballast, you'll have no problem casting it.  I'd be interested to know how the action differs from one of your poplar baits, with the same bill configuration.  I like the ease of working with balsa, so I've never experimented with the harder woods.

[barr5150]

I plan to move forward with the couple balsa baits I made last night. I'll see them through to the end to see how they turn out. 

 

Overall poplar, in my opinion, is great. I buy the sheets at Lowes. I usually run through everything they have on hand and pick out the lightest stuff. If they only have a few good pieces that's all I buy. The whiter or clearer the better. The boards that have alot of green or yellow in them are too heavy. From the reading I've done poplar is classified as a hard wood, but doesn't really act that way. From what I remember from a buoyancy chart I found poplar wasn't too far off where balsa was.

[BobP]

You got bad info about wood density.  The nominal average density of balsa is 11.2 lbs/sq ft and poplar is 26.2 lbs.  That's more than twice as dense/heavy.  Poplar is even slightly heavier than other traditional crankbait woods like basswood and cedar.  That's not to say you can't make a great crankbait from poplar and if you have learned to do that, changing to a different wood brings the new challenges of how to work, ballast, and finish it.  But if you want maximum action and buoyancy in a shallow running crankbait, you need to consider balsa or perhaps paulownia (16 lbs/cu ft).  Not all shallow crankbaits need or want that kind of performance but if you are talking fat shallow running square bills that are going to run through fairly heavy wood cover, balsa is king.

[robalo01]

Where do you buy Balsa? Is it interchangeable with Basswood?

What about using the lightest white pine you can find?

Edited June 11, 2014 by robalo01

[HAWGFAN]

Where do you buy Balsa? Is it interchangeable with Basswood?

What about using the lightest white pine you can find?

Basswood might be interchangeable with Poplar, but it would probably be approaching three times the density of Balsa.  Most of the Pines that I can find listed are in this same range.  Western Red Cedar is a wood that would be consistently lighter than the others mentioned, still double the weight of Balsa.  BobP said it, if you buoyant, Balsa is king.  It is available in many different shapes from hobby stores.  What you'll get will typically be on the softer side, and considered to be around 9# density I believe.  This is what I prefer, because it's easy to work with.  Some guys like 12#, but you'll pay extra for it, if you can find a dealer that will grade it out.  On occasion I'll receive a board with a reddish tint.  These are harder, so I use them for one piece flatside baits that require less sanding.

[BobP]

Robalo01, white pine similar to poplar and basswood.  It's density varies considerably depending on what specific pine species you get and where it comes from:  eastern white pine is 21.8 lbs/cu ft, Canadian pine is 28.4 lbs, Oregon pine is 33.1 lbs.

 

The density numbers are average weights of wood samples dried to a standard moisture content.  Some woods like balsa vary greatly in density so the numbers are only a suggestion of the wood you should be looking at for a particular crankbait in terms of buoyancy.

 

I've tried uploading a Microsoft Works spreadsheet of material densities to the site - to no avail.

[barr5150]

BobP - where does cedar come in at on your chart? I think that might be what I compared poplar to when I made the switch. I worked with it when I started awhile back but my lungs didn't like it so I was forced to find an alternative. 

[RayburnGuy]

From the reading I've done poplar is classified as a hard wood, but doesn't really act that way.

 

 Here's something that might just blow your skirt up. Balsa is also considered a hard wood. Being classified as a hardwood or a softwood doesn't have anything to do with how "hard" the wood is. There was a discussion about this some time ago. Can't seem to find it at the moment, but I'm betting Bob remembers it.

 

Ben

[barr5150]

I would have lost that bet! Wonder how they classify woods cause that balsa I was messing with last night was so soft I could push a scratch awl completely through it if I wanted to. I'll take your word for it but it doesn't seem right. 

[Musky Glenn]

Hard woods have leaves and Soft woods are cone bearing. Musky Glenn

[barr5150]

It's really that simple??

[RayburnGuy]

Here you go. I couldn't find the thread discussing this in the archives so I googled it.

 

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/question598.htm

 

Ben

[mark poulson]

Here's the difference:

 

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/question598.htm

[BobP]

White cedar has a nominal density of 23 lbs/cu ft.  Basswood is the same.  Red cedar is 23 lbs.

 

I try to avoid power sanding, within reason.  One way is to use a carving tool like a Murphy knife to do the gross rounding over, followed by a brief session with the Dremel sander and then hand sanding to remove any marks.  Cedar is particularly aggravating to people who are allergic to wood dust.  If you've tried whittling wood with a regular knife or an Xacto knife, a Murphy knife is a revelation.  It goes through wood like butter.