Hookemup Posted July 31, 2014 Report Share Posted July 31, 2014 I just started using glisten pc. I am coating walleye spinner blades by dipping them in it. After i apply it, the paint on some of the blades start to get light spots, wrinkles ect.. When i clean the drips, i can see paint in the urethane i take off. Are you not supposed to use water based paints with MCU's? Would the Dick nite stuff be better? I figured they are practically the same thing. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 I know zero about Glisten PC but have used several MCU's including Dick Nite. It's important that wet MCU not be allowed to sit on a painted surface for too long. It has very active solvents that evaporate quickly but will wrinkle coatings including water based acrylics if allowed to skin over and trap still-liquid MCU underneath it. The best way to handle this is to dip a blade and immediately hang it up so that all excess MCU drips off the end of the blade. You do not want to rotate MCU coated objects because the rotation allows it to collect somewhere on the lure and remain in a liquid state too long, wrinkling the paint. I can't comment about Glisten PC but can say Dick Nite works very well on blades and spoons when applied over water based acrylic paint. One reason is that its viscosity (fairly thin) has been formulated to work well for lure dipping, which Dick Nite uses in his in-house manufacturing process. Make sure the paint is really dry before coating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted August 1, 2014 Report Share Posted August 1, 2014 Having tried numerous top coats I went back to DN and currently apply 3 brushed coats. I turn mine on a lure turner and have not had any of the wrinkling problems Bob was speaking of, but that has to be because I apply thin coats and wait at least 12 hours, and preferably more, between applications. By using 3 thin coats it does add to the amount of time it takes to finish a lure, but being a hobby builder that doesn't bother me. Bob has said many times that building baits will teach you patience and that very well could be the hardest thing to learn. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookemup Posted August 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2014 Thanks for the replies. I would dip and lift, then dip and lift again, then hang. Then let them sit for 20 min, and put another coat on in the same manner. Is this process causing the problems? Also, i use this krylon uv clear as a pre clear protective coat to reduce messing up paint on the fronts while doing the backs. It just gives me piece of mind when handling blades that arent cleared yet. Could this product be causing some kind of reaction with the MCU? I let all paint and sprays dry thouroughly before clearing. I have also noticed that some of the white blades have some yellowish areas on them now. Any ideas what is casuing this and how to avoid it? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted August 2, 2014 Report Share Posted August 2, 2014 Mixing components with different types of solvents could very well be your problem. Many times the solvents in one item don't play well with the solvents in another item and you experience the type of problems your having. Even when you let everything "dry thoroughly" they can still be off gassing solvents and that can still cause problems. It would be easy enough to see if this is your problem. Try doing one without the Krylon and see what happens. If everything turns out OK then you have located the problem. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted August 3, 2014 Report Share Posted August 3, 2014 As well as the issue cited by Ben, it could also be that your dip interval is allowing solvent to remain too long on your paint. When I dipped lures in MCU, I allowed 24 hrs between dips to avoid wrinkling. It's hard to know what the best re-coat interval is until you have tried various schemes and found one that works for your baits and the specific MCU that you are using. Temperature and humidity also have their effects on how fast the solvent off-gases. I read that several TU'ers use a 2 hr interval with success. It was enough of a quandary that I gave up dipping multiple coats on crankbaits and just went with a single dip - which works perfectly fine for me. MCU is tough stuff! But I found that no matter what I did to preserve the MCU, dipping always caused it to begin hardening in storage too quickly. I was buying it by the quart and getting to use only half of it before it became un-usable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty's Posted August 3, 2014 Report Share Posted August 3, 2014 Your not supposed to put a solvent over a water based finish. It will wrinkle it to the core. There is a solvent in water based stuff...it's called ethylene glycol. It's part of how a water based finish dries. Solvents do nasty things to other solvents. Picture two drunk chicks in a bar...well maybe that isn't such a good example LOL but you get the idea Keep your coats really thin or put a tweener coat in there like krylon fixatif misted on etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookemup Posted August 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2014 Thanks for the replies. I notice the wrinkling after the first coat, so we can rule out that i was putting the second coat on too soon. It could be the krylon uv clear, but i doubt it. I think the solvent in the MCU is eating thru the krylon and messing up the paint. I will test this. Salty, why would i benefit from the fixatif over uv clear? Whats the difference. No idea what fixatif is... Will it protect my paint from the solvent in the MCU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookemup Posted August 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2014 If i could find a clear urethane primer, and put that down first, would it help? Or do those have solvents in them too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty's Posted August 3, 2014 Report Share Posted August 3, 2014 It acts as a sealer/tie coat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted August 3, 2014 Report Share Posted August 3, 2014 Your not supposed to put a solvent over a water based finish. It will wrinkle it to the core. There is a solvent in water based stuff...it's called ethylene glycol. It's part of how a water based finish dries. Solvents do nasty things to other solvents. Picture two drunk chicks in a bar...well maybe that isn't such a good example LOL but you get the idea Keep your coats really thin or put a tweener coat in there like krylon fixatif misted on etc. Salty I've been using DN over Createx and Auto Air and never had a problem with wrinkles. The only time I've had any wrinkling was after using Duro Chrome over Createx for the scale pattern and then top coating with DN. I do go a little to the extreme when heat setting since I use a heat gun instead of a hair dryer. Could it be that I'm getting the Createx and Auto Air cured to the point that the DN doesn't react with the paint? Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty's Posted August 3, 2014 Report Share Posted August 3, 2014 Dunno I'm not a paint chemist. I paid someone many years ago to address some issues I had and this is one thing I learned. One thing I have always found with finishes is what works for one doesn't work for another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeter Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 I don't know about the Krylon. I have seen a lot of complaints for many years about folks using Krylon anything. The guys in this post know more about MCU than I do. But from what I have read on this site. Krylon + anything other than a Krylon product = problems. Skeeter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty's Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Krylon= lacquer Others= 95% enamel lacquer+enamel=recipe for disaster Any paint that has acetone in it will cause water based to lift and delaminate...wrinkles and bubbles. It acts as a paint remover. I don't know about the Krylon. I have seen a lot of complaints for many years about folks using Krylon anything. The guys in this post know more about MCU than I do. But from what I have read on this site. Krylon + anything other than a Krylon product = problems. Skeeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeter Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 "lacquer+enamel=recipe for disaster" Krylon also makes plenty of enamels. Enamel manufacturers use lacquer thinner, MEK, and acetone to thin enamel paint also. Many times it is a combination of all three in the same can. I have been shooting testors enamel over lacquer for years. No problems here. Chemical thinners (acetone, lacquer thinner, MEK, etc) all evaporate out of the paint as it is curing. Eventually, it evaporates from the mix and the paint is cured. My thought is that Krylon has to have something else in either the paint or the thinners that are used. So may folks have tried to use a white spray bomb to quickly base coat a lure. Krylon seems to be everyones first choice. I guess because it is so easy to obtain. But I am also a firm believer in letting one coat completely cure before adding another. I have seen so many folks take shortcuts because they just want to get it all done. The number one cause of sags is too much paint too fast. However, I have seen water based paint turn saggy or turn soft when Urethane clears are shot on them. But not a high grade lacquer. Again my opinion is: Krylon + anything other than a Krylon product = problems. "There is a solvent in water based stuff...it's called ethylene glycol. It's part of how a water based finish dries." Ethylene glycol is not a solvent. It has many uses. One of them is to keep water based anything from freezing. It is one of the key ingredients in anti-freeze. If water based paint has this stuff in it then I would imagine that is what it is for. Water is the thinner for water based paints. Once the water evaporates then the paint is cured. Hookemup, Do you own an airbrush? Skeeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 I think many of us use a "witch's brew" of finish components on crankbaits, mixing water based and various solvent based coatings together. A coatings chemist would be aghast at some of the combinations. But some of them work just fine. Some are marginal and depend on the details of brand, application technique, and timing to work. And some combos will never work. Not ever. Guys who have not yet developed their own coatings regimen often don't understand this. They randomly mix coatings together, have them blow up in their face, and wonder why it happened when they read others have used some of the same stuff on their crankbaits without a problem. This is especially true of random solvent based coatings and most especially of aerosol solvent based coatings. You have to consider everything you put on the crankbait's surface together, from the bare wood up. A good operating principle is to keep it as simple as you can. The less you throw on a lure, and the fewer times you do it, the fewer problems you will have. The simplest regimen I know is to undercoat a wood lure with epoxy, sand off its gloss, paint the lure with anything you like, and then topcoat the paint with epoxy. Epoxy is nice in that it hardens via an internal chemical reaction, not by evaporating solvents, so it is chemically inert and will co-exist with just about any other coating. OK, that's a tried and true coating regimen. Some guys want a different regimen with different products to get different results. That's fine. But when you pick one, be sure to ask what other coatings are being used with that product, and the specifics of application. And if you throw an odd ball random aerosol can of stuff into the mix, don't be surprised if your finish goes south on you and nobody can tell you why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Well said Bob. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeter Posted August 11, 2014 Report Share Posted August 11, 2014 Bob, Have you ever considered being a mediator? You missed your calling son. Skeeter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookemup Posted August 12, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2014 I own an airbrush skeeter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeter Posted August 12, 2014 Report Share Posted August 12, 2014 Forget all of this water based paint. If I were you I would try shooting finger nail polish. Most of them are nothing but lacquer paint. Lacquers STICK! You can tell by reading the name or ingredients. The rest of them are urethanes. Stay away from anything with glitter in it. Unless the glitter is MICRO size. I like to use a #3 tip in my Paasche VL with glitters. A lot of times glitter can clog a tip. My Iwata doesn't like glitters. Shoot it straight on the blade with no prep. Then get some Sally Hansens Tough As Nails and clearcoat it when you are done. That stuff is straight clear lacquer. It will yellow, but it will take more than three years for it to happen. You will probably loose the spinnerbait by then. You can shoot the tough as nails through the airbrush. Thin everything at 3:1 for starters with acetone or lacquer thinner and shoot it between 25 and 45 PSI. You will have to play with whatever brand you buy to get it down. But the suggestions that I gave are a good place to start. With lacquer you could probably skip the clear coat. But clearcoats really brighten up the colors on the blade. Clean everything up with Acetone. Hope this helps. If you have any questions just ask. Skeeter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookemup Posted August 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 Well i would switch, but ive got a pretty good investment in createx already. I think my next step is going to be to try to find something that works well to protect the paint from the solvent in the urethane. Maybe ill try that fixatif. Then thin down the glisten pc with their reducer, and airbrush a couple light coats so it doesnt drip. The dripping seems to pull some of the color away from areas, so i f ican get a good tack coat or two on first, i should be able to put a nice thick final coat on with no problems. If this doesnt work, im going to try the DNs81. Heres a question on the side.... If im using an acrylic enamel or acrylic laquer in between paint layers, and on top before clear coating, and its not uv resitant, will it start to yellow underneath the uv resistant urethane coating? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 If you're going to shoot lacquers, clean immediately with lacquer thinner or acetone, after each bowl of paint, unless you refill immediately and continue painting. Back flush really well and pull the needle out and clean it, or you'll wind up with a frozen air brush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted August 13, 2014 Report Share Posted August 13, 2014 UV filters prevent UV rays from penetrating so the filters should also work for anything underneath the clearcoat. That said - all finishes, UV filtered or not, will eventually yellow from enough UV exposure. It's a matter of degree, not an absolute. You can make finishes durable but you can't make them impervious to environmental effects. Most of the finish coatings we use can protect a lure for at least several years. Considering the life expectancy of the typical lure, that's enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhersh Posted August 15, 2014 Report Share Posted August 15, 2014 You can use enamel or almost anything else over lacquer, but not lacquer over enamel. I learned this many years ago painting cars. Can't remember exactly why, but think it has to do with dry times of chemicals in the paints. Hope this helps some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
