dpalinsk Posted September 28, 2014 Report Share Posted September 28, 2014 I finally got around to trying to figure out the process that will work for me to seal, paint and top coat wood lures. Leading up to and through this weekend, I've been researching and reading everything I can. I completely understand that getting compatible products that play nice together is necessary, but that is easier said than done and that one has to go through a trial and error process to figure out what works best for their application. This weekend, I've been working on two separate test process. For both of them, I'm at the point where I need to figure out what to use to prime the lures before painting. For painting, I use Auto Air and Wicked airbrush paint. Lately, I've been using Solarez for top coating. When I paint plastic lures, I use what I believe is an adhesion promoter recommend by the guys at Coast Airbrush called Save Teem (contains resin, toluene, ethly acetate, etc.), and then hit the lure with opaque white or black Wicked. Target species is Stripers for these lures Information needed: For each test process, looking for primer recommendation and why (I really want to understand and learn.) Test #1: I dipped and soaked the lure in Zinnser SealCoat sanding sealer which is wax-free shellac alcohol based product. Completed two cycles, lightly sanding after each one. Test #2: Dipped in Solarez, hung, spun and then cured in UV nail light. Lightly sanded and now its ready for the next phase. I'm trying to limit how test iterations I need to go through before getting this figured out and appreciate any and all info. Regards, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted September 28, 2014 Report Share Posted September 28, 2014 I hate to throw you another curve ball, but in my opinion the type of wood your using can also be a determining factor in the process you use. For softer woods like balsa I like to apply a coat of runny super glue to the bait first. The super glue will soak into the wood a wee bit giving it a harder shell. After the super glue is fully cured the bait is sanded smooth followed by a coat of epoxy for a glass smooth finish to paint on. A lot of guys just seal the bait with epoxy and skip the super glue. The added step is just my personal preference. I tried sealing with Solarez and it didn't seem to adhere to the bait as well as the super glue or the epoxy. That could possibly be an error on my part as I didn't experiment with the Solarez very much. Sealing the bait with epoxy is a time tested application as a lot of folks have been doing it this way for years. Cured epoxy is tough and gives a smooth surface to paint over. It seems as though your looking for something quicker, and easier, than brushing epoxy as both of your test samples use dipping the lure as a way to seal it. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Glenn Posted September 28, 2014 Report Share Posted September 28, 2014 (edited) Hi David, I don't have the technical info that you are looking for but I have worked with wood and plastic lures long enough to know that there are a bunch of ways to achieve the results you are after. I believe a bunch of the steps you are going through could be eliminated and still have a world class lure. What works for me is 1. The wood only needs paint to achieve a smooth white or black base which can be sanded smooth. An actual sealer at this time is not needed although some like the advantage of being able to wash the lure back down to this level if something goes wrong with the paint job. 2. Wicked Paint is an excellent paint and needs nothing under it except the desired base color of your choice. 3. The finish is the most important step in the whole process. If Solarez is compatible with wicked paint then you are good to go. I favor Devcon two ton epoxy. Sometimes adding extra steps adds extra places for problems, keep it simple. Have fun and good luck. Musky Glenn Edited September 28, 2014 by Musky Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpalinsk Posted September 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2014 I hate to throw you another curve ball, but in my opinion the type of wood your using can also be a determining factor in the process you use. For softer woods like balsa I like to apply a coat of runny super glue to the bait first. The super glue will soak into the wood a wee bit giving it a harder shell. After the super glue is fully cured the bait is sanded smooth followed by a coat of epoxy for a glass smooth finish to paint on. A lot of guys just seal the bait with epoxy and skip the super glue. The added step is just my personal preference. I tried sealing with Solarez and it didn't seem to adhere to the bait as well as the super glue or the epoxy. That could possibly be an error on my part as I didn't experiment with the Solarez very much. Sealing the bait with epoxy is a time tested application as a lot of folks have been doing it this way for years. Cured epoxy is tough and gives a smooth surface to paint over. It seems as though your looking for something quicker, and easier, than brushing epoxy as both of your test samples use dipping the lure as a way to seal it. Ben Ben, I should have mentioned that I'm testing on some AYC lures that came in a lot of lures I bought off eBay awhile back. I'm buying 4 - 6.5 Spook style kits and bodies from Salty's and they are made from AYC and Red Cedar. The kits come pre-drilled for tail weights, belly weights and hook hanger for the through-wire kit. I used Solarez because that's what I am top coating with these days, and I like the ease of use and cost and thought it best to use Solarez as an undercoat if I intend to use as the top coat (learned that from this site!). That said, I have concerns with using either Epoxy or Solarez because of the space it would occupy in the pre-drilled holes or water entry if I don't seal those areas. Sorry, I may be completely clueless or over thinking all of this or both! This is why I'm running both tests. Also why I am searching for answers. Hmmm, you've got me worried about the Solarez not adhering to the wood. Is that an issue you encountered early in your testing or after you were testing on the water? It seems to be adhering real well on my test lure, but I haven't tried poking or trying to chip it yet. I'll test that at some point. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpalinsk Posted September 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2014 Hi David, I don't have the technical info that you are looking for but I have worked with wood and plastic lures long enough to know that there are a bunch of ways to achieve the results you are after. I believe a bunch of the steps you are going through could be eliminated and still have a world class lure. What works for me is 1. The wood only needs paint to achieve a smooth white or black base which can be sanded smooth. An actual sealer at this time is not needed although some like the advantage of being able to wash the lure back down to this level if something goes wrong with the paint job. 2. Wicked Paint is an excellent paint and needs nothing under it except the desired base color of your choice. 3. The finish is the most important step in the whole process. If Solarez is compatible with wicked paint then you are good to go. I favor Devcon two ton epoxy. Sometimes adding extra steps adds extra places for problems, keep it simple. Have fun and good luck. Musky Glenn MG: Solarez is compatible with the Wicked and Auto Air paints. Because of it's ease of use and lower cost, I now using it instead of DEVCON 2 Ton. Wasn't happy with it at first, but after following recommendations from TU members related on how to apply, I've been really pleased with the results (clarity) and durability. If you don't mind me asking, what paint do you use for the base coat for wood lures? Thanks, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 The enemy of wooden baits is expansion of the wood, either from heat, or from water intrusion. There isn't any rigid top coat that can keep a wooden bait from expanding and cracking it, if it water gets into the wood, or the bait gets too hot,. So, if you're using water based paint, be sure to thoroughly dry/heat set all your layer of paint before you top coat. And keep your finished lures out of extreme heat. On the other hand, oil based systems, from primer through top coat, penetrate and move with the wood if it expands, so they are more resistant to damage from water intrusion and heat expansion, but you can't get the same details and paint patterns possible with water based air brush paints. So it's a tradeoff. More details and nicer paint schemes require more attention to detail in the paint process, and making sure your lures aren't cooked in your storage lockers, or on the deck of your boat. But, if you check the hardbaits gallery here, you can see a lot of folks have figured out systems that work for them. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 David, The woods you mentioned are already hard enough that you wouldn't need the super glue. As mentioned I only use the super glue on soft woods like balsa. Like Mark said wooden baits usually don't fail unless subjected to expansion due to extreme heat or water intrusion. Personally I haven't had any problems from heat expanding the lures so much that it cracks the top coat, but I trust Mark and will take his word on that matter. Water intrusion can happen anytime the top coat cracks due to tooth punctures, throwing it against the rocks or bridge pilings, etc. If water reaches the wood your usually not going to catch it until it's too late. If water swells the wood then the bait is ruined and cannot be repaired. Sealing the wood before paint just gives us an added layer of protection as well as giving us a glass smooth surface to paint on. As long as the seal coat isn't penetrated by water the bait can be stripped down and refinished. Given the choice between refinishing a hand made lure and building a new one I'll choose to refinish it. It's a lot quicker and easier to strip, paint and apply a new top coat than it is to start from scratch. As far as the pre-drilled holes it shouldn't be that hard to find something to temporarily plug them with. You can use long eye screws threaded into the holes for the hook hangars and a piece of wooden dowel for the larger holes. Just cut the dowel a little longer than the hole is deep so you can pull it out. You can leave the eye screws in while the epoxy or Solarez is curing and just unscrew them when it's cured. Even a piece of wadded up paper will keep epoxy and Solarez out of those places. Just remember to pull the paper out before curing the top coat. And there's really no need to worry about sealing the inside of those holes. When you glue the hardware in it will seal them. The trouble I had with Solarez was when I used it as a sealer. When I sanded the lure for a smooth surface to paint on the Solarez seemed to get really thin in some areas and that's when I noticed what looked like small blemishes. When I scratched it with a fingernail is when I had the lifting problem. Did I make a mistake in the application? Possibly. Would two coats of Solarez have fixed the thinning I experienced when sanding the bait? That's possible as well. Too wrap things up in a nut shell I've had no problems using epoxy as a sealer and rather than spend a bunch of time experimenting with the Solarez to get the most out of it I decided to go back to something I know without a doubt works. I'm not saying Solarez won't work or that epoxy is better. This is just my own personal preference. A lot of people are using alternatives to epoxy and they are building great baits. In time you will develop your own way of doing things and all that really matters is that it works for you. good luck, Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 Sanding sealer is something to fill in the grain on wood before you begin to apply finish so the grain will not raise when hit by paint. Most sealers are not formulated to be tough, but to be rather soft and easily sanded. To me, that's insufficient for wood crankbaits because I want something durable as well as waterproof. For saltwater use, especially for baits for trolling, I use Devcon epoxy as both an undercoat and a topcoat. I like Devcon because it is a thick topcoat that will resist hook rash longer than most. It is also non-reactive with just about any other kind of coating, solvent or water based. Devcon Two Ton undercoat Lightly sand to remove gloss for better paint adhesion Color basecoat of acrylic paint (usually Polytranspar Superhide White for me) Paint using any acrylic paint Devcon topcoat I've substituted Solarez for an epoxy undercoat, one or two coats, with good results on bass baits. I don't care for its low gloss as a topcoat but I wouldn't hesitate to use it in single or multiple coats if you like the results. To me, it seems as durable as epoxy. You can substitute a lacquer based color basecoat and paint if desired. I agree with Musky Glenn about the philosophy of multiple steps - the more you do to a bait, the more chance you have to screw it up. One ??? Why undercoat a bait that doesn't have the hardware already installed? It seems a lot simpler to install the hardware first, then begin the steps required for the finish, including the undercoating. The only thing I hold to the end is installing lips, which I do before the final topcoat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 I learned about heat and wood long time ago, long before I started making baits. I was sent out to a commercial job to hang a bunch of big, solid core doors. After the job was done, we got a call back because one of the doors didn't fit right. I went back out, and the problem door was an exterior door that faced south, and was painted dark brown. It worked fine at night, but, during the day, it was hard to lock. It was warping during the day, because the dark brown paint absorbed so much heat that the outer face expanded, and the middle of the door where the lock was mounted bellied in, away from the stops and the strike plate, forcing the clients to really push on the door to get the lock to engage. I suggested to them that they paint this door, which face an employee parking lot, a light color, to reflect more heat. They did that, and the problem went away. Wood is a poor conductor of heat, so whichever side receives the sunlight will get very hot and expand before it can pass the heat along to the body of the lure. That's why hot lures crack their top coats, because the outer layer of the wood expands enough to actually make the lure larger, and hard top coats, like epoxy or polyester resin (Solarez) aren't designed to expand. I had the best luck using Etex or NuLustre decoupage epoxies as top coats over wood lures. They are designed to move with the wood, since their primary purpose is to top coat wooden bars and table tops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrinityLureCompany Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 RayburnGuy, Great tip on using super glue on balsa! I have pretty much tossed balsa out of my supplies because of the grain and I just don't like how it feels. With the super glue I could see where that would work great. Thanks again. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 My pleasure Mike. Give the balsa another try with the super glue. It might give you a whole new prospective on the balsa. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSilverFox Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 Stupid question here... what kind of superglue and where are you getting it? How big of a container? I admit I've never bought or saw it in anything other than the little pack like you stick in your tackle box. Never had a use for a lot at one time. I would guess since you're doing lures they must make it in different sizes. I make balsa wood baits and if this is better/easier than 2 part epoxy, I'm all ears. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wchilton Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 You'll want to make sure that water has no way to reach bare wood in the thru-hole. That's why some builders of striper lures submerge baits in linseed oil for a good soaking. One method of sealing I've heard of but not tried is to heat the wood blank and then quickly coat inside and out with epoxy. The heat thins the epoxy and as air in the bait cools it draws epoxy into the pores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 You can get 4 oz bottles of ZAP super glue at some hobby and art supply stores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSilverFox Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 So you just brush it on or dip it? Sounds too easy. Do you use it for your hook hangers, belly weight and bill also? What kind of drying time before you paint? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted September 29, 2014 Report Share Posted September 29, 2014 i usually just put a drop on, and spread it with my finger. It is very runny, so a little at a time is the way to go, so I don't wind up with the glue running down the backside and adding a ridge that I have to sand off. Just be sure to move fast, so your finger doesn't wind up glued to the bait. If I were smart I'd wrap my finger in plastic first, but, then again, I'm not that smart. I clean my finger up with acetone afterwards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 You can do an online search for Zap-A-Gap and buy it from their website. Most of the woodworking websites also carry super glue in thin, medium, thick or gel. It's the thin viscosity that you want so it soaks into the wood a little. I do this as a way to create a sort of hard shell when using softer woods. I sand the super glue smooth and still add a coat of epoxy to seal the bait. The epoxy coat may be overkill, but I'd rather be on the safe side. I doubt a lure will fail because it is too tough and that's why I "beef up" the balsa with super glue. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSilverFox Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Thanks. I have been sanding the lures and then fitting the hardware. I've been mixing the epoxy and putting it on the hardware to set. Then i sand down any overrun. Then i was mixing more epoxy to coat the lure. It was a lot of work. If i can superglue the hardware and the blank and it work as well, I'd prefer this method i think. I would still use the epoxy over the final paint. I think i had it figured where the blank was costing me about 30 cents vs 2 dollars if i bought them finished. I ordered a blank just to see it and it appeared to be a lot less dense balsa than i was using anyway. The boards i buy didn't state the density and the store had no clue. They float well and the action is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I would caution you about using super glue on your diving lips. I was using super glue to install everything at one time including the lips. Once you got the part glued in you could hit it with a little accelerator and the super glue cured instantly. It was definitely a lot faster than waiting on epoxy to cure, but I was having problems with what appeared to be glue on the lips close to where the lip entered the body. At first I thought I was just being messy with the glue. What it ended up being was vapors rising from the super glue once the accelerator was applied. Remember on CSI how the vapors would fog the box when they were looking for fingerprints? Same thing was clouding the diving lips. Ben 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silo1688 Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Hey everybody time to put my two cents in! 1. I take Devcon 2ton or Etex Lite, then thin it out with denatured alcohol lightly brush over it and put it on a lure turner for 24-48hrs. 2. Lightly sand the lures to a matte finish 3. I take quart of Kilz Original oil based primer and thin it with mineral spirits. I poured out approximately 1/4 out and poured in the mineral spirits. Mix very well. 4. Dip the newly sanded lures into the Kilz and hang vertically (nose up) for 24 hours. It will be completely dry, have a very nice matte finish, be bright white and it takes acrylic paint very well. 5. Paint with acrylic and sign your lure. 6. Seal with the same type of base coat. Thanks, -George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I use mainly PVC now for my lures, and it is totally waterproof in it's unpainted/unfinished state. But I've found it can give off gas bubbles when I heat set my paint, so, when I'm installing my hardware and/or bills, I clean the fresh squeeze out by dipping my finger in denatured alcohol, and spreading the excess epoxy over the rest of the lure body. If I don't have enough squeeze out to fully coat the lure, I'll use whatever epoxy is left to finish sealing it, again spreading it with a finger dipped in alcohol. It's not scientific, but that's the beauty of D2T. Once you mix it correctly, it is very forgiving in terms of being thinned. If I'm using super glue to set my hardware, I seal the lure with it instead, just like I do with balsa. Again, it's not to make it stronger or waterproof, it's to seal the surface so the lure doesn't bubble when I heat set my Createx paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSilverFox Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I build some PVC lures also... Just hard to find 1/2 inch boards around here. It's fairly easy to work with for me... Easier than balsa. I can find the 5/8 board all day. It makes a good squarebill crank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichthus Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 If you choose to dip your baits to seal the wood, you might want to do a few coats. in my experience of dipping baits (pretty much all I do to seal and top coat), the dipping adds a thin layer on. sometimes I will dip one layer, and then use a cheap paint brush and brush on a second layer after the first has become hard. this should give you a smooth surface if thats what you're looking to paint on. I use minwax to seal and topcoat my baits. you can refer to an older forum that is all about the stuff. just use the search bar if you're interested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
