S Waver Action

[Ichthus]

how does one get a jointed bait to have really long glides on a straight retrieve like an S-waver? I've been tinkering with some swim baits I'm making and I can get them to swim great but I really want to get that "cruising" kinda look.

[barrybait]

I feel your pain Ichthus.  I have been thinking on this also so that I can make my own "Mother" or "suicide glide".  I think the magic combination is about the ratio of front to back and in any event the front must be longer than most our other swimbaits.  Also I think it is important to have close fitting joint between the two sections limiting the swing to 30 degrees or less.  Good luck with it.

[Ichthus]

That makes a lot of sense. Turning the rear section into more of a rudder. Now my gears are turning. If I come up with something, I'll post it on this thread.

[squirrel3495]

There are a lot of little things that can affect glide action. But I have found, restricting the joint to less than 30 deg of movement, making the front section longer than the tail section, keeping the bait ballasted as low as possible and making them a very, very slow sink usually produces a bait with a very nice glide that gets a lot of attention. There are a lot of other factors, but those three have had the most effect for me. 

ok. 4.

[mark poulson]

There are a lot of little things that can affect glide action. But I have found, restricting the joint to less than 30 deg of movement, making the front section longer than the tail section, keeping the bait ballasted as low as possible and making them a very, very slow sink usually produces a bait with a very nice glide that gets a lot of attention. There are a lot of other factors, but those three have had the most effect for me. 

ok. 4.

 

Thanks.  Does adding a tail of some kind affect the glide action?

Edited December 3, 2014 by mark poulson

[squirrel3495]

I've only used urethane and fiber tails and have not notice any real difference in action. I will say I stop using lexan because of the extra "clacking" sound it makes, but that was long before I made my first glide.

[mark poulson]

I've only used urethane and fiber tails and have not notice any real difference in action. I will say I stop using lexan because of the extra "clacking" sound it makes, but that was long before I made my first glide.

 

Thanks.  I've been making hard plastic tails out of the tops of margarine tubs.  Cheap and easy, and they fit in a handsaw or bandsaw kerf.

[Ichthus]

some really great tips! thanks

[Anglinarcher]

Hi guys, you have to love that S Waver action.  I started using the River2Sea S Waver about 5 or 6 years ago and it catches just about any predator that swims.  Still, their color options were limited and worse yet was the fact they were often out of stock.

 

I started making my own version called the Wandering Taildragger a few years ago.  I get just as much or more of the sine wave swimming action then the original, plus I have a feather tail and a tail hook that has improved fish hook ups substantially.  So, while I have not tried every option yet, I do have some observations I can offer.

 

First, Squirrel is so right about the "little things". 

 

Second, Too long of a front section or too short and you get nothing.  I have experimented with both options and I have only determined that for a specific depth of lure, and with a specific weighting, there is an optimal ration of front to back lengths.  Change any one and all need to change.

 

Third, I do not agree that a limit of 30 degrees to the tail movement is required.  I often bounced the original S Waver, and my WTD, off rocks because I fished them near cliffs.  Often, if the lure did not hit within inches of the rock cliff, nothing would hit, but if it did, the fish would follow to the edge of the shelf, then hammer the lure.  You cannot do that for hours without hitting the rocks, and doing damage to the lures.  Sometimes the lure would be damaged to the point that the joint would open to almost 90 degrees and the lure would swim just fine.  On the other hand, damage to other parts of the lure would kill it immediately.

 

I wish I could tell you I had all the answers, I don't.  But I did not want to let some misconceptions continue that might detour research. 

 

I was just starting to document my changes and attempts when I moved from Washington State to Louisiana this year.  I had to close down my "lure lab, aka man cave" to make the move.  To date, I don't have my stuff up and running again so it might be quite some time before I can provide details.  For whatever it is worth, I posted the Wandering Taildragger on YouTube when I entered it in a lure contest a couple of years ago.  You can judge the lure for yourself, just don't laugh too much over the paint jobs...... they were primitive.

 

I will tell you this much, if I can do it, you can to.  The lure is sensitive to weighting, ratios of front and back sections, depth of lure, and especially the center of gravity.  It is not as sensitive to 'slow sinking' as you would think.  I have some I have really weighted and as long as I kept the center of gravity right, the fast sinkers swim great.  Still, when swimming, they tend to pull to the top 2 to 5 feet of depth.

 

Good luck, and keep it up.

[Vodkaman]

Anglinarcher - great read and your observations pretty much match mine. I only built ten prototypes and paused the program to build a duplicator machine for larger bodies, to speed up the build process and remove some of the tedium. Unfortunately the machine was not a success.

 

My observations:

 

Front section ratio being fairly critical. This is an area that I needed to explore in more detail. My thoughts are that the vortex that drives the action, is a specific size for each design. Therefore there is a ‘sweet spot’ to maximize the vortex power. Too short or long and you miss the point.

 

Joint freedom is most critical. Any hint of fouling, restriction or limiting and the action will roll badly or even fail completely. My thoughts on this are, that with freedom, the power of the vortex is absorbed into pure movement. Restrictions divert some or all of the power away from movement and into roll. My experiments with the double pin hinge were particularly successful here.

 

I did a lot of work with ballast distribution. I found no evidence that ballast variations made any significant difference. The main usefulness of ballast was to balance each individual section so that it floated or suspended horizontally. This would relieve all strain on the hinges, improving freedom of movement. Any nose up or down variations between the segments would cause a degree of rubbing at the joints and reduce the action.

 

Depth control. There are no forces on a lipless swimbait that forces depth. Other than building a heavy sinker, the lure is always going to swim close to the surface and horizontal, hence the importance of building the bait to swim horizontal.

 

With only building ten prototypes, the above can only be considered as very preliminary findings and observations. The intention was to build more like a hundred for a proper study, to back up or disprove theories and ideas. Hopefully I will be able to build a workshop again one day and pick up where I left off. It is not going to happen any day soon though unfortunately.

 

Dave

[mark poulson]

Guys, thanks for sharing your hard-earned knowledge.  

As you probably know, my initial design efforts are always to copy a successful lure as closely as I can, and the expand on that, once I've gotten a lure that works.

I copied the section lengths from the S waver, and still couldn't get the gliding action, even though I ballasted it to sink horizontally.

The freedom of the hinge joint, specifically making both sections sit horizontal in the water, independently, so there is no cocking of the joint, is something I really never consider when I make my jointed gliders.  I do weight my one piece gliders so the sink horizontal.

It makes perfect sense, now that you said it, that hinge friction would restrict the movement on a glide bait.  Doh!!

I'm going to take another crack at it, thanks to you guys.

Thanks, I think....

[Anglinarcher]

Have faith.  I actually destroyed an S Waver to see how it worked for my first attempts.  learned a lot, but ........ have far more to learn.

[Ichthus]

I'm really liking this thread. Just a wealth of info. Haven't been able to test any baits lately but I'm tweaking them

[squirrel3495]

Restricting the joint is probably a bad choice of words. Any little irregularity in the joint will make it stick,  even if it only sticks every 20 or 30 glides it will happen when a nice fish is eyeballing it. I've had it happen more than once. Cleaning the joint up and making sure it is free and clean, even after paint is one of those other little things I mentioned. One of the very last things I do is epoxy in the hinge pin, this way after I paint the bait, I can pull it apart and clean the screw eyes and slots.

 

IMO, Length of glide (from side to side) is directly effected by the amount of degrees the hinge allows the head to turn. A large degree of turn from the tail will make the bait spin in a tight circle. A smaller degree of turn causes the bait to turn in a much wider circle which is what we see as a wide glide. The bait just does not have enough momentum to finish the circle. Then you pull again and it tries to make a large circle in the other direction. 

Edited December 9, 2014 by squirrel3495

[mark poulson]

I just made a two piece glide bait, and I used a band saw to cut slots instead of the rounded V's I use for jointed swimbaits, because I wanted tighter joints.  They show a little more, because I had to bring the slot all the way in to where the V of the bait section meets the face of the lure to get enough depth for the screw eye to move unimpeded, but there is much less vertical movement in the joint.

I did as Dave suggested, and ballasted each section independently, making sure they sank at the same rate and totally level.

I held them side by side in my test bucket, and they fell at exactly the same rate.  Whoopee!!!

I hope to take it for a test swim today.

[mark poulson]

I gave the new glider a test swim today, after testing both a stock 7" S Waver in baby bass, and a 7" trout S Waver that I had sprayed with Performix Liquid Tape, to give it a softer texture ala Butch Brown's Deps Glider.

Short story long, they all swam great.  

There was virtually no difference in action between the stock bait and the one sprayed with Liquid Tape.

Although I had tried to give my 7" glide bait copy the same range of movement in it's joint, it would up with a bigger S action, and would turn 90 degrees+ on a quick pull.  

It was a far cry from my first attempt at a glide bait, which didn't move at all except straight ahead.

I owe the success to the input from you guys in this thread.  

Thank you all.

Here's two pics of the baits:

 

 

[Skeeter]

Congrats on a successful test run Mark. It's great when all of the hard work comes together. Nice carving on the face of the bait. The dimensions of the bait look spot on. I have learned a lot on this post. There sure is a lot of tallent on this site. Seems someone always has the answer or a solution. You guys have me itching to try and make one of these.

 

Skeeter

[squirrel3495]

Mark, I have tried clear plasti dip with poor results keeping the coat even over the whole bait even with rotating. Could you elaborate on the liquid tape you used and how it holds up. Skinning my baits has been an unsuccessful adventure so far.  

[mark poulson]

Thanks Skeeter.  I copied the original as best I could, in shape and size, and in hardware locations and size, to eliminate as many variables as I could.  I was working with PVC trimboard, so I knew my bait would be different than the hollow plastic shells of the actual S Waver.  But, using the tips in this thread, I "lucked out".  Making the two sections sink horizontal, and at the same rate, was the real key, I think (thank you Dave), because it allowed the joint to have minimal friction, so it moves really freely.

My bait is 49 grams, compared to 45 grams for the original, so I figured it would sink faster, and I'd have to retrieve it more quickly.  But it turns out it falls and swims at the same rate.

I plan to paint it and dip it in AC1315 tomorrow, and that will add a little weight, but not enough to alter the bait's action, I think.

Fingers crossed!

Of course, now that I've "mastered" the glide bait, I'm hot to try my own shapes, more trout-like, but with the same flat ramped chin that I think keeps the baits from sinking on the retrieve.  Hahaha

[Skeeter]

Huh?  What's skinning?

 

Skeeter

[mark poulson]

Squirrel,

This is a first for me.  I've never corresponded with a squirrel before!  Hahaha  I know, that is weird, especially for a nut like me!  Booooo!!!

 

I tried PlastiDip years ago, to coat the handles of some tools, and I was disappointed.  It never work well for me.  It ran down to the bottom and formed big drips, and the upper part was too thin and fragile.  I would never have thought of using it for coating a lure.

The Performix Liquid Tape comes in an aerosol spray can.  It is sprayed on.  I spray it outside, because it has some nasty fumes.  I found out about it from Nathan, so it's all his fault if it doesn't work.

It comes out like thick paint, doesn't sag unless you put it on too thick, can be recoated after 30 minutes, and dries/cures in 4 hours.  I did a thin coat, and then another, and it bonded fine and has held up to casting fine.  I haven't been bit on the bait yet, so I don't know how it will hold up to a bass' teeth, but it is very tough and stretchy, and it bonds well.  Getting it off places you don't want it is a pain, so take your time, mask well, and use a sharp knife to cut it away from the masking tape, or it will pull itself off the bait.

So far, I've only done the one glide bait, but I did turn Butch Brown onto it for repairs to his Deps Swimmers.

[Ichthus]

Awesome! Looks like those slots worked nicely. I was just about to go on here and ask what type of joints y'all were using on them. But I got my answer before even asking.

[Vodkaman]

Glad the baits worked out for you. They look superb.

 

Dave

[mark poulson]

Glad the baits worked out for you. They look superb.

 

Dave

Dave,

Only the unpainted PVC bait is mine.  The other two are S Wavers.  If I could paint like that, I'd be...happy!

Thanks for all your help.

Mark

Edited December 11, 2014 by mark poulson

[Nathan]

Squirrel & Mark,

Clear plastic dip is also avaible in a spray on form...the dippable stuff does work well on jig heads though!!..Nathan