Lip Size Vs Depth

[mark poulson]

Again, using a successful commercial lure as a starting point, so you can see how it sits in the water at rest, will help you a lot.  The angle a lure rests at is a big factor in how quickly it dives, and how deep it dives to.  I typically try to duplicate the angle of the Rapala DT baits when I'm making similar lures.

I've also found that bending the first 1/4" of the lip back up a bit helps it grab the water and dive faster.  Again, I use the DT series baits for examples.

And i grind/sand the underside of the front edge of the lip to a thinner edge, and that helps it dive faster.

[mark poulson]

Jason-- One variable I have used for quite a few years is putting a curve in the lip (concave)--On a 8Cm lure (3 1/4") with a lip overhang of 17mm ( apx 3/4'') they will dive to 15' as opposed to the same standard flat lip of the same size and overhang, this will dive to about 8'-10' at best--this is with the tow point on the nose of the lure -Dave would be able to enlighten you on why this is so, I'm not up on "Vortex Shedding" although it really fascinates me.

Dave- Great post's as usual, it's always an education when you get involved .

Pete

Pete,

Does the concave face of the lip affect the amount of side to side Xing, the wiggle, of the lure?

[Vodkaman]

Experimenting with diving lures is high on my list, but I haven't figured out a way of testing yet. I want to do the testing at home, outside my workshop, but a 25' deep test tank is out of the question. If I can prove that the angle between the line and the lip is always the same for a max depth, then knowing this angle, it will be possible to test in a shallow tank. But, this is just theory at the moment.

 

JR - the bobber method won't give you an exact depth, but it will give you an accurate comparison and so yes, a good method.

 

Mark - Yes, the concave lip increases the power of the vortices and so increases the wiggle.

 

Dave

[Jordanlures]

I love asking any one of you a question, first I get my answer then I gain a whole treasure trove of knowledge beyond any I could hope for. What a fantastic sight, thank you all for your generosity David J

[diemai]

The running depth of a particular crankbait is variable to a certain grade accordingly to line thickness or line out and speed(trolling only) .

 

I had experienced this for myself earlier in the year ,........It happened , that within a few days apart ,  I threw one particular bait at the same spot on the bank of a deeper pond , but with two different rods ,......one of those a casting rod equipped with 0,25mm dia. braid(in Germany we classify fishing line by diameter, not pounds test) , the second rod was a spinning rod with 0,14mm braid !

 

.......and guess what , .......on the 0,14mm braid the deep diving crankbait started to hit the bottom in a much greater distance from the bank ,  as if retrieved on the 0,25mm braid ,.........the thinner braid surely lets the plug go down 2 or 3 feet deeper , I assume .

 

But to get back to the question , .....I think , the only way to test ,....or better said ,...to determine about crankbait running depths for practical use , is to troll the lures behind a boat and same time utilize a sonar,........but surely one would have to take previously mentioned variables into consideration  .

 

 

You may also check out this book , it contains tables , where the author had put down his own diving depths testing at a given line dia. and a given length of line ot and a given speed as well .

 

Sorry , somehow I'm unable to put up straight links in here , ...just google term : "Lure Encyclopedia by Frank Prokop" , should take you to Amazon or other stores .

 

Greetings , Dieter

[Travis]

You test them on the water......Doesn't take too long to know how deep those deep divers get.   Find a submerged road, bridge, pilings, stumps, etc....  I have fished a lot of cranks made by guys reported to get to x depth to find out real quick even with that rod tip rammed into the water I wasn't hitting objects at a known depth.

 

It is all about the feel.  If you can't tell how deep it is when fishing then you have to spend more time on the water.  Electronics make it easier but nothing you can't figure out with a carolina rig, texas rigged worm, or jig and then follow up with the crank.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Travis

[Vodkaman]

If you are working from the bank, it is not difficult to accurately survey the water depth. All you need is a long piece of string marked in length, a simple protractor to measure angles, a calculator and a notebook.

 

Dave

[hazmail]

Dave J-- here is a picture of some Corrorobree Frogs I dug out of the files, it shows 8cm and 6cm lures with concave or convex lips ( Just turn the lip over), as I said previously the concave lip goes to 15', and when turned over  '' convex'' up they will dive to about half that depth (8'), using a normal flat bib of the same length you get somewhere in the middle, maybe 10'.

The curve is 2mm on a  20mm wide lip, a bit less than that on the smaller lures which have a smaller lip.

 

Mark--yes, concave up is hard and wide, convex up is tight with a medium action.

 

Sorry I have to run, going to Tasmania tomorrow, fishing for sea run Brown Trout--nowhere near ready.

Pete

[JRammit]

Dave, ive used slip bobbers from shore to measure depth for years.. Just as effective, and no math to screw up (ha ha!)... But your way would be quicker

Demai made a good reference, ive seen those charts.. One could use a commercial bait from the chart as a starting point (like Mark says)

And i can tell my wife Travis told me to spend more time on the water

[Jordanlures]

Thanks Pete, awesome looking lures and killer paint job. Had to look up what a corrorobree frog was, good match on the paint. David J

[SW Lures]

I enjoy the people here that have been around in this craft for awhile discussing a topic. So much good information and creative thoughts come out of them. Even with me being here at TU for such a short time.

Where I'm testing at is a area that has a known depth (in general) and a clay bottom. Also is somewhat free of structure, I hope. I will get a good idea of what the lure is running. My issue is that I have never really made a crankbait before. I figure to have a few blow ups from some designs, which is ok. I'll learn from them.

Mark I agree with your thoughts of using a proven design. As I state earlier I started this to create a design that I could not find with a color scheme that I have not seen. These designs I hope are not the ones that go..... BOOMM!

Take Care;

Dale

[bass100]

Here is some info.   http://makewoodenlures.com/crankbait-diving-lips.pdf

[diemai]

@ bass100

 

Great read,.....thanks a lot for sharing , .....greetings , Dieter

[RayburnGuy]

@ bass100

 

Great read,.....thanks a lot for sharing , .....greetings , Dieter

 

X2

[spoonpluggergino]

Hey Dave and Pete

You guys are amazing, I have to read and reread your post many times before I start to understand what is going on, thanks for your great work

 

Here are some of my finding, while building big 10 inch baits to hit deep rocks will over 20 feet. The lip I made out of S/S measuring 2-1/4 wide by 4 inches long. I took a page out from the little Bomber baits. The Bomber bait when it sits in the water because of the brass lip, the angle or attitude of the bait is at a about or more than 45 degree, so the attitude angle of the bait will affect or at least get a bait to get really deep. I made 3 identical baits one with the lip straight in to the bait, but I placed my ballast at a point forward where the bait sits almost vertical that bait will get down to over 25 feet very fast, the second and third bait that has a 15 degree and 30 degree lip placement, the ballast weight on both is installed where the baits sits in the water level, the 15 degree dives deep also, but needs more line, the third bait has a 30 degree lip angle and this one dives  less and needs more line. At first I taught that the 30 degree would dive deeper than the 15 degree bait, but I was wrong. 

 

deepest diver, 0 degree lip angle, bait attitude over 45 degree angle sitting in water

second deepest 15 degree lip, bait attitude level sitting in water

third deepest 30 degree lip, bait attitude level sitting in water 

Gino

[SW Lures]

Thanks for sharing Gino, that tells me that I'm heading in the right direction. My baits are sealed now and I will be doing float test today with and with out full gear. I will pay attention to the way each sets in the water. Then I'll do a small pull test to see what kind of movement that each has and then tomorrow we will find out for sure.

A few young gentlemen want to help with dropping of them out from their boat or visa versa and watching them dive from that drop. Afterwards do some fishing. I believe they have a eye for one of these baits if they come out right. I'm just fine with that.

Again thanks for all the info.

Dale

[Jdeee]

Here is one of the best deep diver designs that I have come across. It digs hard and fast down to 20 feet casting and the wobble drives fish crazy. Caught many big fish with these, pike and musky love them. I have always wanted to make a jumbo version, maybe this winter.

[mark poulson]

I wonder if it's a combination of the cupped eyes acting as additional diving surfaces, plus the line tie is out in front of the bill.  I've found that extending the line tie out from the bill on my crankbaits makes them more stable at faster retrieves, but I can't tell how it affects diving depth.  No pool, no test tank, no clear water.  Boo hoo! )

[JRammit]

My uneducated guess:

Theres not much lip in front of that line tie, but the tow point is below the x-axis of the bait... Maybe this gives the line more leverage against the water

[SW Lures]

My test's failed miserably, with the deep divers that I have been designing. The remainder came through with flying colors once I put more weight in all of them. I have moved the tie/tow line further out on the lip of the divers. So far so good in a float test, swim test. The bait was running at about 70° down with some wiggle but acting like a parachute. I'll try again this weekend to see what the depth will be. I won't be disappointed if it doesn't get to my depth I want. This is a learning process for me. I have several more bodies ready to experiment with and can make more quickly.

I'm pretty happy with the out come of the baits. I have one design that I have not really seen before (I had to search hard to find something even close to the design) that I'm very happy with. I'm really surprised that it did as well as it did, beautiful action. I have some minnow style baits that run very true with a nice wobble and to 6-10'. I need to design more of them to have a wiggle for colder water conditions.

My problem is, I'm limited in time. Boo...hoo...hoo! Got to work, ugh.

Take Care; Dale

[Vodkaman]

DaleSW - It is a great learning process, so nothing is wasted. Moving the eye out should improve things.

 

If you haven't thrown the 70 deg bait out, try trimming the lip shorter 1mm or 2mm at a time and observe the effects. It should be the same as moving the eye forward. Get the most out of baits that don't work before throwing them out.

 

DAve

[mark poulson]

Dave,

What effect do you think having the line tie up away from the face of the lip has, if any?

[Jdeee]

Mark

I don't know exactly what makes this particular lure work but it does. I think it's a combo of all the design, the cupped eyes the placement of the lip under the chin, the line tie placement. Just a well planned out design.

These lures were manufactured in the 50's. Heddon tried to knock them off with a version that was identical except for a rounded lip instead of the squared off lip that they used. The Heddon version just doesn't catch fish like the original. The Millsite Deep Creep is one of the best designed lures that I have ever fished, it hunts like a starving coyote and it won't blow out until it reaches crazy speeds above 10 mph

Edited October 14, 2015 by Jdeee

[RayburnGuy]

Interesting lure Jdee. When I first looked at it I thought it was a Heddon until seeing the lip. Don't remember Heddon having one exactly like that. That bait must be where Heddon got the River Runt body style from.

 

Ben

[Vodkaman]

Mark - the tow point, regardless of the clip, is where it joins the lip. Even so, the connection does seem rather forward for a deep dive. I think what makes the difference, is the step in the lip. I believe that this increases the power of the driving vortices, like a funnel for an analogy.

 

In my early days, I prototyped lures made of balsa dowel, with the lip glued directly to a chamfered nose. I originally did this purely for simplicity as I was experimenting with various lip shapes. What I found was, that the action (X-ing) was weak. I then cut the lip slot in traditional style, cut about 1/2" back from the nose. The power was greatly increased. From this I concluded that the power comes from the funneling effect between the lip and the belly, similar to the bend in the lip shown above in post No48.

 

On a normal deep diver, this funneling occurs on the wrong side of the tow eye. With the pikey style lip, the power is applied on the correct side of the tow eye, which means the lip can be shorter.

 

Dave