Seeking 56 Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) I'm going to be fishing a bucket list water system this fall where bigger lures in the past have yielded enormous fish. As a result I want to build a special bait for this trip. So, in theory, if I trace out a commercially produced jointed bait and supersize it 100% lip and all, say to 16'' in length, shouldn't it have the same action? Any factors to consider? I've supersized baits before with the original size lip and have had great success but increasing the size of the entire lure is a first for me. I'm thinking about making it out of cedar but would consider a hardwood. Appreciate your thoughts and input. s56 Edited June 12, 2015 by Seeking 56 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 I think you should consider using the same timber as the original, buoyancy has a lot to do with not only flotation but also action. Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robn510 Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 guessing at that size you would have to double maybe triple the ballast weighting and possibly add another joint in the body. what kind of rod do you use to throw a 16" swimbait? if you dont mind me asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loft Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) When you double the dimentions, the weighe get 8 times as high (1^3 = 1 2^3 =8 ) Edited June 12, 2015 by Loft 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking 56 Posted June 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 hazmail, Sorry, I should've specified that it's a plastic bait. I think then that I may have to weigh the plastic lure and ensure the 16'' is twice the weight? robn510, It's a jointed crankbait but depending on the weight of the 16'' cedar or hardwood I was thinking that I may either have to compensate with ballast or bore out material. This will definately be a trolling lure used with an E-Glass rod that I had shortened to 6'10'' specifically for larger lures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking 56 Posted June 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Loft, assuming you're using the same material? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Loft is correct. The weight of the bait will increase by a factor of 8, as will the required ballast. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking 56 Posted June 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 The lures weighs 1.9 oz, at a factor of 8 it comes to 15.2 oz is this correct? Is this the weight I should be striving for to replicate the same action of the 8'' lure? Sorry if i'm questionning the math but how can 2 16'' identical shaped baits without ballast weigh the same if one is cedar or better yet balsa, and the other is oak? What am I missing here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loft Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 The factor 8 is the increase in volume if you multiply all three dimensions by two. If you want the same boyancy you wan't to hit that factor 8 in weight also. The action will also be affected by center of gravity and the moment of inertia. Hope it gives just a little sense Loft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) Different materials make trying to use formulas to upscale almost impossible. Do a side-by-side float test, once you have your bait shaped, lipped, the hardware all installed, and sealed really well. If it is a floater, add ballast low in the head and mid section to achieve the same level of floatation, but never in the tail. If it is a sinker, add ballast in the same places to match the rate of fall of the original. A lure that falls nose first will swim level, if there is no ballast in the tail. Match the attitude of the original. That is the angle it has as it falls. Jointed lures that fall level will always swim tail down on the retrieve. Joint spacing is also critical. Hold the original by the head, upside down, and match the angles of each section as it bends back in a U shape. This is the only foolproof way I have found to upsize a lure. Edited June 12, 2015 by mark poulson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) It is all a question of volume. Consider rectangular lure 1: Length L1 = 3" depth D1 = 1" thick T1 = 0.5" This gives a volume V1 = L x D x T = 1.5 inch cu Now consider the same lure doubled up, lure 2: Length L2 = 6" depth D2 = 2" thick T2 = 1" This gives a volume V2 = L x D x T = 12 inch cu The ratio is V2 / V1 get your calculator out and divide 12 / 1.5 Dave Edited June 12, 2015 by Vodkaman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) Grrr. Dave, you know I don't do volume, except when I need to keep the beer level low enough to allow for the shot glass of whiskey! Hahaha Seriously, a given volume of a hollow plastic bait will have different buoyancy than the same volume of a wooden or PVC bait, so I've found I have to do float tests, once the lure is finish shaped and sealed. I can say, without risk of being wrong, that you will need a tuna rod to throw a 16" swimbait! Edited June 12, 2015 by mark poulson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 (edited) Mark - it is all useful information: Take a beer glass 3" diameter (D) and 4" deep (L). V (vol) = pi x D x D x L / 4 V = 3.14 x 3 x 3 x 4 / 4 V = 28ins cu roughly 1 pint. Now give the landlord a glass twice the size and pay him twice the money and see if he will fill it for you: V = pi x D x D x L / 4 V = 3.14 x 6 x 6 x 8 / 4 V = 226 ins cu roughly 8 pints. Dave Edited June 12, 2015 by Vodkaman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 "Yur a hard mon, Skinner!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Nah - I used to own a bar Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking 56 Posted June 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Thanks guys, scientific math is not my forte. This will definately be an interesting build. Mark, there are musky guys out there that toss 2lb lures. s54 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 They must be stout! I used to huck Huddlestons all day, but not anymore. I still see younger guys doing it, and I'm jealous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatfingers Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 There is physics involved as well as math. The process is not linear and getting it to run at all may be problematic even if you were dealing with like kinds of materials. In this case, the leap from plastic to wood is more than likely a a very big leap. I have designed a number of successful baits and upsized them. From what I've seen, there is an envelope in which upsizing is possible but only within a specific range or scale. By that I mean the bait will run...but the action will almost never be truly identical. Beyond certain limits the bait may fail completely and not run at all. I have one model for muskies that is 5 1/2 inches long. It will scale up to about 7 inches and down to about 3 1/2. The action changes despite duplicating the scale on the body and the lip on the unweighted version (which eliminates the weighting question in this case.) Beyond those parameters the bait doesn't run properly and at the beneath the lower end of the scale, the bait runs but the catch rate seems drop off sharply. Imagine a bait made from half inch wide stock with a relatively blunt nose. Doubling that width means you are trying to pull a one inch thick piece of wood through the water. The lip will only compensate for a certain amount of resistance. Thereafter, other variables must be altered or removed. Can you get a 16 inch bait to run in the same shape as an 8 inch bait? Maybe, but duplicating the action of the 8 inch bait will mos likely require fundamental changes from the 8 incher. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking 56 Posted June 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Mark, I'm sure these guys are wrecked at the end of the season. When I cast and it's usually because i'm in someone else's boat. I don't toss anything larger than 8''. In my boat we only troll. Some good thoughts there fatfingers. Although not the same project but I'm going to approach it like I did when I made my 13'' straight cedar Believer. I had so many doubts initially but I persisted, followed every curve as the plastic version...verdict? It runs really nice and doesn't blow out. But here's the best part, no hook rash! I winded up giving it to a good buddy of mine for helping me with my transom. In case anybody's wondering, it's going to be a 16'' jointed Depthraider. s56 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodieb8 Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 wow gonna be some serious hooks on that tree limb. let me know how it works out im curious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Glenn Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I bass and musky fish and can tell you that I am tireder at the end of the day throwing 3/8 oz. bass lures than I am lobbing 3 oz. musky lures. It seems trying to get distance with the light lures I try so hard it takes more effort than just getting the musky lure going. I don't throw anything over 8 oz. There is a huge difference between a heavy bass rod and a heavy musky rod. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I can't imagine a rod setup that I could throw a 16 oz bait on for very long. 8 oz kicks my butt nowadays, so I pick my spots for throwing 8" ROF 12 Huds. I've dropped down to 6" swimbaits and smaller now, and my shoulder is much happier. I agree that the rod makes a huge difference. I lob my swimbaits, with an almost side arm motion, and want a rod with a med. action that will load and then release with minimum effort. Too fast a rod and I have to whip it to get it to load, and that is work! I find the same holds true for smaller bass baits. I pick a rod that will cast my bait easily first, then I match the line and hook size so I can set the hook with that rod. Playing the fish is almost the least important, unless I'm fishing around heavy grass and need to haul them out, or turn them before they can bury back into the grass. I'm moving up to the CA Delta next month, so I'll be putting my light tackle away, and breaking out the heavy fluoro and braid for flipping and frogging. I'll miss all the finesse stuff we have to do down here in SoCal....for about a minute! Hahaha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imagine_studios Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 It's not the casting of the Musky lures that gets me, it's the tremendous resistance to crank them back in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Posted June 18, 2015 Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 Mark, What are you going to do without tha southern Ca. traffic?...lol..Nathan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Nathan, I'm dying to find out! Seriously, I'm getting short timers disease. I check the calendar every day. It is torture having all my lure making stuff packed away in boxes for the move. I swear I've reopened some boxes three times already! I didn't realize how much I work on stuff, until I packed it away and can't anymore. It's taken me three weeks to pack up my garage shop! And I laughed when my youngest son pleaded with me to start earlier! Doh!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
