littleriver Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Made this lure after seeing TU member jonister's baits and the challenges they presented with the design. Here is some footage of my bait as i tested it in a small creek near my home today. I want to know what you think of the lures action? Any good for fishing? Any ideas for improvement? Any questions or suggestions. Really Any and all input welcome. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Good prototype work, especially the interchangeable lip. I find that video is a powerful tool in lure design, allowing you to replay a snippet over and over. In fact, what I do is cut and paste the same snippet about 20 times, allowing me to examine closely on replay. The first lip was particularly interesting as I replayed a couple of passes. There seemed to be a double action thing going on there, giving the lure a very erratic action, which is always desirable in my book. It looks to me like the lure is at the yaw/pitch transition were the lure is doing a bit of both. Because you are at the transition, it will take very little change of lip length to change the action, even 1/32" will be visible. You could even try a tad longer to see the effect, by wedging a slither of wood in the slot to force the lip forward. As the length increased, the action would go to pure pitch, a kind of craw nodding effect. If you just wanted to get rid of the erratic and go for a straight side-to-side, then you would need to shorten 1/16" or 3/32". Personally I would be exploring the erratic boundary. As for usefulness, I am not a fisherman, so cannot help you there. Dave 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 My favorite part of the video was you explaining to the passer bys... Its always funny the looks and comments we get when we appear to be fishing in a creek/puddle/ditch that obviously holds no fish Id like to see it on a jerking retrieve... I dont believe ive ever seen a fat bodied jerk bait, but your proto seems to be trying to mimic the action of a jerk bait even on a steady retrieve..... Id call that usefull! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaze Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Hello Vic, good to see you are still tinkering with the lures. I think this one has lots of potential and do believe it will get bit. I believe that I liked the more erratic action of the wide bill best. Also as Jrammit said, it did seem to slightly mimic the action of a jerk bait and I think that is a good thing. You might be on to something!! Good luck with it. John 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Thank you Dave for taking the time to watch and share insights. I'll definetly be using your suggestion of adding spacers to lengthen bib. Brilliant!!! I will make several varing widths to use for all my future prototypes. That just saved me a ton of work going forward. Sharp eye on the action too. The lure is wobbling and bucking. I wasnt sure that was visable in video but definatly visable in person. I'll explore bib lenghth a bit more. The action on that wide bib looks attractive to me as well. But curious what others here thought. Thanks again! Vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Because I have done a lot of experimenting around this transition, I knew what to expect to see. What you have captured on video is the root cause of hunting action, described as 'the holy grail' by some lure designers and undesirable by others. For me it has been the culmination of a seven year study of the hunting action. I started this work because the common opinion was that hunting baits cannot be designed and built with consistency. I proved that hunters can be built consistently by building 11 out of a batch of 12, I rushed one and messed it up. I need to finish off that project with a video to show how it is done and what action is available. To this end, one of my first projects in my new shop is to build a 12' x 4' test tank with under water video capability. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 (edited) Hi JRammit Your right! It never fails. Someone always seems to be around when testing lures. This is a public park so privacy is not to be expected. I like your idea of giving the bait a jerk but it will have to wait till i get some glue on the toe eye. lures do ok for moderate casting and reeling unglued but jerking is out of the question. There are some limits with type of testing. I 'll for sure give it a go though when it is glued. Thank you for taking time to watch and share your thoughts! Edited June 13, 2015 by littleriver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Hi John It is nice to be back making a few baits after such a long absence. Really missed process and people. Good to see you too! I like action too. Do a bit more testing of the proto before I finish and put in the field. Thanks for watching and sharing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 Dave Can't wait to see it . Your tanks and under water footage is legendary. In the mean time, I'll put your advice to use and capture what I can. Thanks again and good luck with the completion of the project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 River, thanks for posting the vid, it was my pleasure to watch!... I still have a great deal to learn about crank baits, ive spent days at a time searching the archives here, massive amount of info but seeing and reading are totally different! You sounded exactly like me talking to the people in the park, but i wont be doing much public testing anymore, i got a 500 gallon "tub" from work for free!... Its not as extravagant as Vodkamans test tank, but free is free! I wish i could throw my ideas together as quick as you did!... If i ever get enough time away from work to complete the project ive already started, i plan to do a little learning experiment involving "lip basics" with as many quick models as i can build... Hopefully by then ill figure out how to upload video from my smart/dumb phone.... If so, ill share! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 JRammit Honestly , shooting and posting the video required a great deal of effort even with all this modern equipment but your right; seeing really shortens the learning curve. To that end, I really appreciate feedback . Sharing experience and knowledge is what TU and life is all about. A couple things I learned my from making myself shoot this video. One , how to download pictures and video directly to my computer from phone. I have always sent picture to my mail and video directly to you tube in the past . This time i downloaded the video from my phone to my computer . I had to visit samsung website to dowload a program that allowed me to do it but it was free. I was going to edit this footage but really no time for that at the moment. Another reason is it is much quicker to upload video from computer to youtube than it is to upload it directly from phone. So going forward i will be doing all my vids in this new to me way. Second , I learned I need to hold my cell phone sideways for a wider shot . I did not like this narrow format . Finally, I learned i need to mount the phone in some way . Not sure how yet but it needs to be done. It will make a better experience for myself and the viewer. Your in the right place to shorten your build time. The only reason I am able to make and test a lure in such a short time is because all the knowledge I gained from the great people here at TU. I have learned almost everything i know about lure building here. Everything from carving from Lincoya and super glue sealing from Vodkaman to hand painting and basic lure design from diemai. I am more than happy to give back. Look forward to seeing your baits sometime soon. Best of luck! Vic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) Hi , Vic, Haven't been in here that much lately and just stumbled across this thread at my work's computer last night , did not want to log in from there , so I'm writing from home now ,.........no extra speakers there , too , so the audio of the built-in speaker was too low to understand in the noisy environment , anyway . I think , that your lure proto surely has potential to attract bass , with each of both lip styles,.......but the first larger coffin bill does provide an even more uncommon action compared to other lures , .....might certainly be of advantage in pressured waters I was wondering , why your bait does not dig down a bit deeper , so I came to think , that the way , you did your test , might not do the lure full justice . I mean , it's just perfect to shoot the footage from a higher location like that bridge in this case , but I reckon, that maybe the directon of the line pull might not match life fishing conditions , as it makes up for a much bigger angle against the water's surface this way , ......just preventing the lure to go down as deep as it would be able to . Have you also swum it just from the bank with the rod tip down , ...just to figure out for yourself , ...without the camera/phone ? I may be wrong,..but this is , what crossed my mind . Anyway , Vic , .......you should have it finished and cast it at your local bass , .......despite of all of our discussions , ....they are the ones to have the last say upon our creations . Greetings , Dieter Edited June 14, 2015 by diemai 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Interesting bait and nice video. I agree with Dieter that your results may be skewed by pulling the bait at a higher angle than it would actually be fished. Your test can give you some insight on which lip configuration will have the best natural action but I think you have to get the lip semi-permanently mounted and cast/retrieve it in deeper water to judge whether it meets your expectations. I usually just go ahead and build mine to completion before I test them but I think you might be able to temporarily mount the lip with a dot of super glue for testing, and then be able to break the lip out afterwards with moderate force. For me, there's no substitute for retrieving a bait in real conditions to feel how it thumps, how straight it runs, and whether it blows out at high speed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Hi Dieter Thank you for having a look and sharing your impressions. Your absolutely right. The bait is being hindered from reaching its true fishing depth. That is something that will have to be tried in bigger deeper water. Too is lure retrieval speed. As you know , some lures work well at a slow retrieval speed but will blow out at faster speeds. This bait will do well at a higher return rate. I think with time, one gets a feel for this sort of thing. That being said i do feel the test even flawed as shown gives an insight to how the lure will perform finished. The action we see now will change very little to none if the lure is finished properly. But i do get your point. After many years of bathtub testing your own baits and then testing them again in the outdoors, you have a better understanding of this (smallwater/bigwater)concept than most. Yes, I did take the lure to the pond and work it in deeper water at faster retrieve speeds. I always test all my baits in this condition in a more realistic setting to test performance of the lure before finishing. Though ill often start in this small creek shown here to get a good look at the action before moving to the pond this creek feeds. But for filming purposes i chose to stay in this shallow clear creek. As you say, it is ideal due to water clarity and vantage point the bridge affords the viewer. As far as the angle goes, it is always changing as we cast out and reel in our baits but the action of the lure (as far as i know) stays the same throughout the process. In the video, i am shortlining the bait. This is preventing it from digging into the bottom of the shallow creek. It is like flying a kite in the wind and only letting out a few of string. Though the action is inhibited a bit , we still get a good sense of how and if it will fly. Once the bait is finished, ill do a second video of the lure in bigger water so everyone may see any differences in action. Thanks again Dieter! Vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Hi Bob Thank you for watching and taking the time to share some thoughts. I agree with you and Dieter that it is best to test ones lures in as real f I shing conditions as possible. And this video doesnt really show me doing that. With the phone in one hand and the reel inthe other, just reeling the bait was an impossibility. The best i could was drag the bait short ditances. But off camera i did test the bait in a more realistic manner. In this condition the lure can be worked surpringly hard. When i first started testing my baits in this way, i was very surprised at how well everything stayed in place. I dont recommend hooking fish or reeling as fast as you can or casting as far as you can but normal short casts and normal retrieves are done easily wthout any glue. Sometimes i will use tape as a wedge to tighten things us so they stay in place during testing. On this lure i used it on the ballast. Sometimes i will use on bib too. It wasnt needed on this one. Something that will change the action of a proto is how one fills unused ballast holes. On this lure, i tested lures action with a second small ballast just behind bib. After testing i convluded the lure had more action without it.now i have the hole to fill. To keep action same, best to use filler that matches the lure body. Thanks again Bob Vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) I want to say one more thing about testing lures in this manner(unglued). If your building a proven design that you have built many times before, there is little need for these shenanigans. Trust the process and you will be fine. But if your building something new to you or new to the world as the name prototype implies, then this is the best way I know to ensure one has a working bait at the end of that process. This method allows the builder to check and adjust the bait at every stage of the process before its too late or too hard to correct. Almost everything I build is a prototype, so this has become an important part of my lure making process. It saves time, effort, walls, baits and most important my sanity. Even for those builders who have been building the same designs for years but would like to change it up a bit, this is a powerful tool that allows one to change things quickly and see what happens without having to build fifty duds. Edited June 14, 2015 by littleriver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 I want to say one more thing about testing lures in this manner(unglued). If your building a proven design that you have built many times before, there is little need for these shenanigans. Trust the process and you will be fine. But if your building something new to you or new to the world as the name prototype implies, then this is the best way I know to ensure one has a working bait at the end of that process. This method allows the builder to check and adjust the bait at every stage of the process before its too late or too hard to correct. Almost everything I build is a prototype, so this has become an important part of my lure making process. It saves time, effort, walls, baits and most important my sanity. Even for those builders who have been building the same designs for years but would like to change it up a bit, this is a powerful tool that allows one to change things quickly and see what happens without having to build fifty duds. This is good advice Vic!... Especially for someone limited on time and tools such as myself!... I get frustrated at times, cause one mistake can put me back a week or two, seems like ive been working on this same bait forever (almost 2 months) when in reality i probably only have about 8 hours invested in it......... Question: if using epoxy as a sealer, how would i seal the inside of the lip slot without making it too small to accept the removable lip?? Also a tip: idk if you have kids, but if so they make a great tripod!.... My youngest boy does most of my filming, its a little shaky, but my hands are free and he feels like he contributed! Jeremy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 (edited) Hi Jeremy Glad your finding this useful. And I appreciate the tip . My boys definitely could have helped me with this shoot . They were off playing in the creek just behind me. I am certain they would love an opportunity to participate. Thank you! You could seal the entire bait as normal with two part epoxy but leave the lip slot open. I would use a dummy bill while sealing then remove immidately after epoxy is applied. Once epoxy is dried the bib slot could be sealed with thin superglue that may be purchased at any dollar tree. The best tool for sanding lip slots for fine tuning I have found is a fingernail file. Do your bib testing and finish by using two part epoxy to put the bib of your choice in the bait. Best of luck on your next build! Vic Edited June 14, 2015 by littleriver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonister Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 I just watched your video and i love it! it really helped shed some light on the lip design for me. The first lip design i like alot, and have tried (it is on the crawfish in my gallery) and it has good action and wiggle, esp in the deeper water. The second lip i like alot and helped me a bunch with line tie placement. I had the same lip design on the 3 i couldnt get to run and i think the line tie forward is what created the dulled action. Thanks for posting this, this is really good info to have! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Your welcome jonister It was your baits that moved me to make this video and share my process for solving these kind of problems. Glad you found the video useful. One of the fine tune adjustments I made on this bait besides bib, was I moved ballast higher in the bait . I started out with it very low in the bait. I next added a second smaller weight and was still not satisfied. infact the action got worst. Deadstick. This trial and error process led me to finally remove the small weight and move the ballast higher. This gave the the best action. With the ballast low in the bait it became too stable and killed the action. Moving the ballast higher in the bait introduced just enough instability to give an action I liked. All these small but significant changes are possible using other methods but it is so much easier without glue slowing things down. Best of luck on your next build! Vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonister Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Thanks Vic! i feel honored to have inspired someone. Usually im the one getting inspired (sometimes for the worse). I might try moving the ballast around in my baits. Im still messing around with them, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) Just a brief update on the proto......Been really busy lately and not time to work on the bait but took it out again this evening for some action testing. First I tried a smaller square bill and this proved to make a working bait with a average wobble. Good but not great or different. So I decided to give Dave's advice ago and move the bib out or make it longer. Thank you Dave! Since the bib fit rather snug in the lip slot I just slid it out to try varying longer lengths. This proved to provide a whole popouri new actions I had no idea were there. Really cool and different actions. The most i could add with this bib was appx 1/8 of an inch before it was too loose to trust to stay in place. As excepted ,the action really tightened but the vibration this bait was now giving off was great. Best thing i can compare to is a chatter bait. Gone was slow wide wandering wobble. Now the rod tip really hummed as the bait pulsed its way across the bottom . Which is more likely to get bitten, that may depend on season and species but i really liked the vibration . Ive gotten lots of bites with baits putting of that kind of vibration. I am going to make another bill like this big one. Only this time longer, so I can explore lengthing it even more before choosing an action and finishing the bait. Hopefully next week it will be finished. Vic Edited June 20, 2015 by littleriver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 Oh yes! - glad you gave it a go and sampled some of those vibes. There is a lot of music there, just gotta move the plectrum around. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted June 20, 2015 Report Share Posted June 20, 2015 Interesting bait and nice video. I agree with Dieter that your results may be skewed by pulling the bait at a higher angle than it would actually be fished. Your test can give you some insight on which lip configuration will have the best natural action but I think you have to get the lip semi-permanently mounted and cast/retrieve it in deeper water to judge whether it meets your expectations. I usually just go ahead and build mine to completion before I test them but I think you might be able to temporarily mount the lip with a dot of super glue for testing, and then be able to break the lip out afterwards with moderate force. For me, there's no substitute for retrieving a bait in real conditions to feel how it thumps, how straight it runs, and whether it blows out at high speed. I am with you on this one Bob. I finish a bait for testing and take it out to the lake or creek and fish it. I may make a few different ones with some differences and modify while on the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 21, 2015 Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 If the lip fits too loosely, put some blue painters tape on it to make the fit more snug. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
