littleriver Posted June 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2015 (edited) Good idea Mark! That's what I do when needed. In the case of my proto currently testing, after moving the bill forward there just isn't enough bib left in the slot to hold it in place. I might be able to tape some extensions to the bill like Dave suggested earlier but it is too easy for me to just make another bib using the router method. Takes about 30 seconds. I plan to cut out the bib with the router everywhere except the part that fits into the body. This I will cut with the band saw . But you know talking about this has given me an idea. I could tape a wood extension to my bib template . I would not have to do any work. The router will do it all. Edited June 21, 2015 by littleriver 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Finished bait is here ! I'll post video once I find a suitable place to shoot it. Big firework show this weekend; so, my usual spot is off limits. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonister Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Littleriver that looks awesome! your testing definatley payed off! I dont know if it was just my bad luck but i broke that lip design 2 times just fishing. It might have been that both times they were repaired, i had to cut a slot to fit it into the line tie. I redid it all though and the bill seems strong now . Your paint jobs are killer, i love the brush work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Hi jonister It was your baits that inspired this one. Thank you for the positive feedback. Glad you like this style. I like it too but it always nice to hear others do too. What material are you making your bill from? And where are they breaking? I have never broken a lexan bill. Maybe I haven't tried hard enough. Plexiglass is another story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonister Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 I was using thick lexan, I have a feeling it was from hitting rocks underwater or something. One time i was snagged and yanked on it to have it fly into the rocks and break, but the other time i was just running it nice and easy and it came uo broken. I think it was because on both i had to cut a slot for the wire because i didnt replace the wire, just the lip, so this slot allowed me to get the wire into place, but it might have weakend the lexan. now, on my third lip replacement, i just added new wire and now it seems to be holding up fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Jonister - Cutting slots and grooves for wires is a necessary evil. Are you giving a well roughed up surface for the glue fixing, this helps to spread the loads evenly. Make the end of the slots round and as smooth as possible. Avoid inside sharp corners like the plague. This is where all failures start. It is an engineering thing. If you are making the slot with two saw cuts and cleaning the bottom. Try drilling a hole first, then make the saw cuts to tangent into the hole. Dave Edited June 26, 2015 by Vodkaman 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonister Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 When i do through wire, i usually attach the wire with the bill at the same time. so all i have is a small hole for the eye to come out. when the lips broke, i left the wire but had to make a cut line from the base of the lip to the center or where my hole is. This line on my first two replacements was weak in the connecting spots and broke on rocks or whatever it hit. When i replaced it a third time, I just put a hole new wire insert in the bait so i could avoid this cutting of the lexan. that seemed to help and so far i have fished it and the lip has not broken. I will try roughing the lip up on my next bait. I think like you stated, it had sharp corners. I will try to make my lips have less sharp angles on them. Thanks for the tip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Next time, it may be better to cut a slot just big enough to fit the wire loop through. Drill two adjacent holes and wiggle the drill to break through. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Jonister - Cutting slots and grooves for wires is a necessary evil. Are you giving a well roughed up surface for the glue fixing, this helps to spread the loads evenly. Make the end of the slots round and as smooth as possible. Avoid inside sharp corners like the plague. This is where all failures start. It is an engineering thing. If you are making the slot with two saw cuts and cleaning the bottom. Try drilling a hole first, then make the saw cuts to tangent into the hole. Dave Good call Dave. "Easing" corners is a topic that hasn't gotten much notoriety around here, but is extremely important when trying to prevent failure directly related to stress. A smooth cut allows the stress to travel along the entire path of the cut without gathering in a specific spot. When stress is allowed to build up in one spot it can quickly lead to failure. And it's not just corners this applies to. The same thing can happen, although to a lesser degree, when cut edges are left with saw marks in them. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Action Video Update.. I was able to shoot in the creek this morning . The part of the stream I wanted to use was blocked off but not off limits. Before shooting I made a few casts and actually had a fish hit the lure. That is second time while testing this bait I have had strikes but no hookup. Not complaining but D it. The footage is not the greatest. Something is lost every time I transfer to youtube. Looks better on phone for sure. The baits action is like a spinning top under water with nose down tight action. There is some wandering just like a top on a table. The depth the lure will travel is not as deep as I thought originally. Two and a half to three feet is it for this lure. The bait is hard to retrieve but does not blow out at any rate. I was able to achieve this action by following Vodkaman's advice and lengthing the bib. I took the length to the point the point the bait cartwheeled over and then back to this action seen. The bib on the lure is a copy of the original but longer. Thanks to everyone for your help with this build. Enjoy! Vic Edited June 26, 2015 by littleriver 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Vic, I'm impressed! Very nice, indeed. I have two questions. First, have you tried putting the line tie down into the bill? I'm pretty sure it will dive deeper if you do. Second, have you tried fishing it with just a split ring line connection, instead of the snap and swivel you used in the video? I've found that adding both a snap and a swivel changes the action on my lures. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) It wants to "drag" an awful lot and would be the reason it is hard to retrieve. In my opinion you have designed a bait that is not functioning properly as it is fighting against the motion it wants to do. Marks suggestion may help some for sure. Edited June 26, 2015 by Travis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 I say forget the depth for now... You've built a bait that defies what we know (ha! I can say we now!) about crank baits... This one is not supposed to run "right"... By all means it should blow out with that amount of lip exposed... Instead it hunts like a well trained bird dog, and vibrates like a womans best friend!...... If you adjust it to dive deeper, i fear you would defeat the purpose! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 The lure is at the pitch/yaw boundary, were the lip is at 90 degrees to the tow direction. This explains everything that is going on. dance - the lure changes direction often, appearing to do a dance. This is hunting. With a straight lipped lure with zero angle, it is not so pretty as on a lure with 45 - 60 degrees. thump - Because of the angle, you are making the maximum presentation to the water flow and so the bait is generating the maximum thump. Depth - Using the cannon ball analogy, you are firing the cannon too steep for maximum distance. If you move the tow eye out or shorten the lip, the depth will increase. An optimum will be found for maximum depth. Passed the optimum and the depth reduces again. Taking the bait up to cartwheel and trimming back a tad is a smart move. You have now explored everything that is available by that bait. By gradually trimming the lip back, you will see the full range of action. It is then just a case of choosing which action you want. Dave 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2015 Hi Mark No, I haven't tried either of those things but willing to give it try. I'll take it out tomorrow for another swim with just a split ring and let you know. Thank you for the suggestions. HI Travis You may be right. I believe there are many things i could have done different to make the bait more user friendly but I was pretty happy with this action before I finished the bait. So, I decided to keep it as is. That was one of the things I hoped others might get from this exercise. The unfinished proto will display the same action as the finished lure if done properly. This unusual action stayed pretty much the same through the whole process and as far as I am concerned, this was a complete success. Vic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2015 Hi Dave Great points ! Really appreciate the input from an engineering persecutive. I find it very helpful. Thank you! I wish I had a diagram to go along with your first point. That one is hard for me to see mentally for some reason but I believe I follow you well enough. Thanks Vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2015 (edited) Hi Jeremy I' m with you. If it ain't broke don't fix it. At least that is what the fish are telling me. I did go back and watch the original video and have to say I do like the wide swag of the original shorter bill version. I may have to make another with a shorter bill for cooler water. Thank you sharing your thoughts. Vic Edited June 27, 2015 by littleriver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Hi Mark I added a split ring and removed the swivel clip. I tried the lure briefly and I mean breafly with this configuration in bad conditions . I need to get the bait back to the water with better conditions and more time to do your suggestion justice. Maybe later tonight ill get a chance. Vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Hi Mark I took the lure out for another run tonight. Much better conditions and I had time to really test the lure. Two thumps up!! The action did change and I'd say it changed a lot. It went from a wandering top to a Texas two stepping fool. Really was doing a two step too. The bait would make a couple stutter steps to the right then a couple the left over and then do it over and over again. Almost like i have two baits in one here now. And I have to really rethink how i test the baits while in construction. I never fish with a swivel clip . I usually install a split ring on the line tie and tie strait to split ring. I think I will be testing like i fish from now on . I was using the swivel clip to save time but now looks more like a waste of time. Thank you !!! Vic Edited June 30, 2015 by littleriver 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 This is interesting... I always assumed a snap swivel gave a crank bait more action (same as a loop knot compared to a clinch or palomar)......... Question.. Were you using the black swivels with the rounded clip (the kind i use)?.. Or the gold with the angled clip..... Another question.. Does that make a difference?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Vic, Glad it worked out. You never know until you try. JR, I would think the added weight of the swivel is what affects the bait's action. Just using a snap, like what comes with a Speed Trap crank, shouldn't affect the action, as long as it's round. An angled clip will restrict the action of the crank. It has too small a space for the line tie to move well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hi Jeremy It is an interesting result and not what i expected either. But I have learned to keep an open mind. In the video, I am using a Eagle Claw size 5 barrel swivel. Big sucker! I bough these for Alabama rigs and just threw it on because it was available and thought it would make this process easier. Vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleriver Posted June 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Mark Your giving me all kinds of ideas. One might take wide wobbler and quickly turn it into a tight one with a bit of split shot or glass beads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Vic, Glad it worked out. You never know until you try. JR, I would think the added weight of the swivel is what affects the bait's action. Just using a snap, like what comes with a Speed Trap crank, shouldn't affect the action, as long as it's round. An angled clip will restrict the action of the crank. It has too small a space for the line tie to move well. I would think the weight becomes irrelevant once in tow... I can understand on a jerk bait or topwater since there is pausing involved..... Its a fair assumption that the rounded swivel provides more freedom of movement (which is why i dont buy the angled type), but physics do not have to be fair.... Weight seems the only variable, so youre probably right Edited June 30, 2015 by JRammit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Hi Jeremy It is an interesting result and not what i expected either. But I have learned to keep an open mind. In the video, I am using a Eagle Claw size 5 barrel swivel. Big sucker! I bough these for Alabama rigs and just threw it on because it was available and thought it would make this process easier. Vic I buy the smallest swivels i can get away with, and only use them on crank baits... But ive never compared to a direct knot...... Maybe a test tank experiment?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
