flipper2 Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Guys I like to build the flat tap style plugs with coffin bills. I have what feel is good action, but I was wondering if there was any way to reduce the effort it takes to make the bait dive. Is this a bill or type of wood question. Skeeter, I have one of Jerry lohr's tap style baits and it takes have the effort to reel as one of mine but there is very little difference in size and shape of my bill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 Generally speaking, I've found that longer, thinner bills dive deeper, with less wobble. Kind of makes sense, since wobbling comes from water spilling off the bill, first to one side and then the other, so a wider bill catches and spills more water each time, increasing the wobble. I find that the bill needs to be at least as wide as the bait. My truly flat sided baits need the bill a little wider than the body, or they don't wiggle (X) at all. I always try and find a successful commercial lure that similar to what I wand to make and use that as a starting point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 (edited) I'm unclear what the problem is: is the bait too hard to reel down to depth, or do you want it to dive more quickly? A wider lip would dive more quickly and will have greater cranking resistance, all other factors held equal. But these Tapp style baits naturally have a tight action and are quite sensitive to the lip size and line tie position, so you can experiment with lip width and ballast size/position but know that most changes will affect the action negatively. My favorite Tapp style bait is sold by Tenessee Tuffy. They have very good action and are sold at a good price, and have been my favorite commercial model when I'm "rolling my own".. Edited July 16, 2015 by BobP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flipper2 Posted July 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 What I would like to figure out is how to make my plug retrieve easier while maintaining the same depth an similar action. I am comparing it to another bait of the same style and size. Somehow he has accomplished It. The only visual differences between the plugs is mine has different angles forming the coffin shape of the bill. Mine are closer to the end of the bill and maybe 1/64 wider and his wide points are more toward the line tie creating a little longer angle on the coffin shape. also his bait seams to be some type of hardwood. First do you think the tip angles of the coffin could effect it that much? Could it just be the difference in trying to pull the balsa down as opposed to the more dense hardwood? Also, I have a hard time expressing what I am trying to ask so thank you for your patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 What I would like to figure out is how to make my plug retrieve easier while maintaining the same depth an similar action. I am comparing it to another bait of the same style and size. Somehow he has accomplished It. The only visual differences between the plugs is mine has different angles forming the coffin shape of the bill. Mine are closer to the end of the bill and maybe 1/64 wider and his wide points are more toward the line tie creating a little longer angle on the coffin shape. also his bait seams to be some type of hardwood. First do you think the tip angles of the coffin could effect it that much? Could it just be the difference in trying to pull the balsa down as opposed to the more dense hardwood? Also, I have a hard time expressing what I am trying to ask so thank you for your patience. Your question is clear to me, but i think you have your answer in this post I had never thought about it until you mentioned it, but making the balsa dive would create much more load on your rod than a dense hardwood would Think of trying to sink a beach ball compared to sinking a big log 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking 56 Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 I'm pretty confident the coffin style will not make much of a difference compared to the same otherwise rounded bill. I have noticed a wiggle difference on mine when I used a denser wood like ash compared to my usual mahoganey. The difference is more noticeable at slower speeds, the denser ash's wiggle is not as tight and tends to pull harder. If you're going to use balsa, I would consider adding a bit of ballast in the center of the bait. s56 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flipper2 Posted July 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Yeah S56, the other thing I have been battling is tightening up the wiggle. I have split the weights up and moved the line tie up some and I think I'm headed in the right direction. Hopefully I can achieve a tight fast wiggle. I really wanted to use balsa wood since it is so easy to shape and my depth goal is 8-10ft everything down here is so shallow. I think JRammit may be right the buoyancy of the balsa may be the biggest part of my problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 A balsa bait of the same total weight as a basswood (or other hardwood) bait will have a considerable difference in weight distribution, so will have a different action. Maybe better, maybe worse. If you really want to clone a bait, you need to use the same kind of wood, the same total weight, the same lip, lip angle, line tie position, ballast position and weight, etc, to get it close. Otherwise you are basically designing your own bait from scratch. Not a bad thing if you can prototype it enough to get the action you want. I've fished a variety of Tapp style custom baits and built several series of them myself. They all look similar but they all have different actions. I have to admit that building them to get exactly the action I wanted was not an easy task. Good luck with yours! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 The speed of the action is dependent solely on the lip width. The narrower the lip the faster the wiggle. For a tight action rather than a wide action, the coffin is a good choice. I tested various lip shapes in a direct comparison and the coffin was narrower than the others. Depth is just about finding the sweet spot for the tow eye location. Too far forward or back and you lose depth. No one can tell you where this is, you have to find it by testing. Examine pictures of similar baits and start there. A heavier wood will give a tighter action than balsa. But all you need to do is spread the ballast out on a balsa lure to achieve a tighter/narrower action. It would make more sense to use a heavier density wood. Dave 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemmy Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 Flipper, I'm having a hard time picturing the differences between the Lohr lip and yours. One important comparison would be between the surface area of the lip on each before and aft of the line tie. To my knowledge Lohr baits were balsa, and later foam. But some of the more experienced may know better, like Blackjack, Skeeter, Hughesy, et al. As for tightness of action, in general: A full bodied alphabet style will have more of a wiggle " X ", where a shad style will instead want to roll more. Similarly, a flat sided lure will tend to wiggle side to side, where a rounded plug will roll more. Of course, this is everything else being equal, more than one way to skin a cat (or catfish)... Clemmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking 56 Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 Try experimenting with cedar if you have access to it. It's probably the most popular wood used amongst musky lure builders. You may just find a happy medium. Don't overlook the fact that depth is also achieved on fast you retrieve the lure. s56 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracy G Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 Yeah S56, the other thing I have been battling is tightening up the wiggle. I have split the weights up and moved the line tie up some and I think I'm headed in the right direction. Hopefully I can achieve a tight fast wiggle. I really wanted to use balsa wood since it is so easy to shape and my depth goal is 8-10ft everything down here is so shallow. I think JRammit may be right the buoyancy of the balsa may be the biggest part of my problem. Try building one with cedar. The main thing to remember is to give the grain a little extra attention while rough sanding. If you don't, the grains of the wood will make small protruding lines. You can probably cut the amount of ballast by at least 1/2 (just a starting point). I think you would be pleased with the results. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flipper2 Posted July 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 Sorry for the late response. I have been on vacation in TN "No flat baits to be found or people who carve them". I just made a bait out of popular and reduced the bill width as Vodkaman had suggested, that made a huge difference in the retrieve resistance and also tighten the wiggle. I still need to test the depth but I am now on the right path. Thanks to everyone for your responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
