JRammit Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) Ive been fishing for ideas on this topic for a while without a difinitive answer... I found a few options searching, but they were scattered throughout threads about scent So i thought id start a dedicated thread to flavoring baits NOT scenting them My findings/thoughts: -Salt... Strong attractive flavor, but changes bouyancy, structure, color and jeopardizes durability of plastic -Coffee... Earthy robust flavor, lighter than salt (i think) but only 1 of the 4 problems above solved -Garlic salt/Powder... Proven fish attractant, but same story as the last two powdered solutions -Animal fats... Oil based same as plastic, but minus the shelf life -Fish oil... "Great idea" i said to myself last year.. Not only did it catch fish, but they ate my baits like they were live bait (1st Crappie jig results, in trophy room gallery).. Problem, next day the bag of baits was glued shut (sticky) -MSG... I dont know, its used in cooking and in carp baits, but it is still in a powder form Im sure this is a compromise, anything added to plastic has to change it somehow... But if there is something better than what i found, id like to hear about it! Edited August 29, 2015 by JRammit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 The human sense of taste works different to a fish. Human taste is actually more about smell than actual taste. Tests have been done by clipping the nose for taste tests and a greatly reduced sense of taste resulted. Drink orange juice from a bottle. It is only when you stop drinking and the flavors hit your nose, does the full orange flavor come out - try it. A fish attractant, to be effective, must dissolve into the water and reach the fish ahead of the bait in order to attract the fish. An oil based flavor will only be sensed when the bait is bitten. This may encourage the fish to hang on to the flavored lure longer, but the flavor did not attract the fish. Coffee or garlic tastes no more like a real fish than a lure sounds like a real fish. But it is the difference to the normal that tells the predator that a meal is possible. If everyone uses garlic, then in an over fished water, garlic will represent pain. I would always prefer to choose a flavor different to the normal. Real fish flavors are good for obvious reasons, not always associated with being dragged across the pond by your lips. Just a few thoughts. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted August 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 Attraction to me is in the visual presentation... Not to say that scent is worthless, but if it were required no one would fish hard baits or wire baits.. Or even flies Watching under water videos or even sight fishing, many times you see a fish take and spit a bait a couple of times before committing... Scented lures may or may not get more bites... But bites dont make for good pictures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 JR - I happen to agree, attraction is more about movement, vibrations and sound. But, as the title of this thread is about 'flavor', then let’s get into it. I have more experience with flavor baits than with movement, as I only switched over to lures less than ten years ago. The main target species were non-predatory and so they found their food almost entirely by flavor. Such species would have a well-developed sense of taste. The question is; does there exist, a difference in taste sensitivity between the hunters and the gatherers. I did a little cursory search into the evolution of fish. Not much was to be gleaned here as most writers just wanted to narrate the evolution from fish to land dwelling creatures. What was of interest is that the jaws of the modern fish evolved only once, whereas many creature features have evolved numerous times; eyes, wings etc. The basic modern day fish finished its evolution some 400 million years ago, having taken 150 million years to reach its perfect form. This is a point in history when other creatures were only just starting their evolutionary journey. In comparison, MAN is just about 1 million years into its evolution. In terms of evolution, man is undeveloped and has a long way to go. In Darwinian terms, man is now frozen and other than any changes that we make ourselves, we will not evolve any further. From what I can gather, the perfect fish was designed/evolved as a hunter. However, 400 million years is plenty of time for sub-species to evolve with gatherer tendencies and skills. Some fish may have evolved back and forth between the two modes. But, even as gatherers, the fish is still feeding on live food; bloodworm, insects, larvae etc. I do not see the evolution of a sense of taste as crucial to the survival of a fish. Having said that, there are several species that feed on dead fish, meat and anything else that reaches its demise in the water. These fish will certainly have evolved a heightened sense of taste. Fish such as catfish, eels, etc. But these species are clearly well separated from the likes of bass, pike, musky, perch, trout and salmon. For a predator hunting for live food, the only taste available from the prey would be a trail of waste material that the predator could follow, and this is what the sense of taste would be developed around, as it would give the predator a significant advantage and thus obey the rules of Darwinian evolution. In conclusion, we should be dipping our lures in urine, not fish extract or garlic flavoured coffee. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 few shots of BANG in the bag or on the bait and thats all i worry about...the garlic is the best for my fishing waters...st.clair and lk.erie...the smallies just love the stuff. i will say this...to me i wont get on the water with out it..it has sold me time and time again......we tested it alot ...proved it over and over...i have let friends have the front of the boat while i fished theused water in the back and out fished them 5 to 1..some times more.....if you a walleye guy....wd-40 again in the great lakes water...trolling hands down out fished the same baits over and over..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted August 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 WD-40 on marshmallows for trout My favorite soft plastic bait before i started making my own was the Berkley Chigger Craw.. I wasnt crazy about the Power Worms cause they were lacking in action, instead i chose Zoom and Roboworm I caught many a fish on the unflavored worms (also unscented) and still do fine with my own worms.. But when i made the switch to my own craw bait, my hook rate suffered.... Could be that i spend more time in the shop than on the water and im getting rusty... But it sure seemed the fish held the Berkley craws longer than they do my own Indepth scientific analysis by Dave, and backed by facts as always..... The flavor aspect could just be a confidence factor... Next time i have to "go" in the boat, ill test out your theory 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) I have no scientific evidence to back this up, but have always been told that flathead catfish will not eat anything that isn't alive. Having caught quite a lot of them over the years I can say I've never caught one on cut bait although I have caught a few of them on crankbaits and even one on a spinnerbait. Could these catfish be the exception to the rule? It's my belief that if an animal is given a set of features such as nostrils, taste buds, barbels, lateral lines, etc. it is done so for a purpose. Why give a fish taste buds if they can't taste or nostrils if they can't smell? Ben Edited August 29, 2015 by RayburnGuy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) I would say no exception, the catfish is capable of any form of feeding. In fact my fishing experience prior to the last ten years has included catching many predatory fish on vegetable food baits, including 3Lb trout on sweetcorn. I have caught perch on bread baits too. All the local fisheries here in Indonesia only permit bait fishing, no lures allowed. My closest venue stocks bawal, which is a piranha type fish with ferocious predatory teeth and powerful jaws. There are two more fisheries stocked with cats, another with carp. The most perfectly evolved creature is not going to be backed up into a corner, limited to only one food source. If the lake is depleted of bait fish, the bass will likely move on to some other food source rather than starve. A species habits can change from one lake to another, depending on all the conditions of water minerals, weather, vegetation which all combines to support the food chain, even the competition of other higher species. Ben - in your lake, live bait fish is more prevalent than rotting carcasses, so the cat population modifies its feeding regime accordingly. The species already has the physiology to adapt. Another big hobby of mine is bug photography. In studying the local bugs, I have found many local variations not found anywhere else and not documented. Life is flexible and adaptable. Dave Edited August 29, 2015 by Vodkaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 It's not just in "my lake" Dave. It's widely accepted knowledge that flathead catfish only feed on live bait and it's not because there is a shortage of dead bait fish since the other species of catfish are doing quite well feeding on dead bait. This is proven time and again by the other species of catfish being caught on dead bait, stink bait, blood baits, etc. so it's not that the "cat population" in it's entirety has switched over to live bait. And it's not just in the lakes. This is also true in rivers. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 Ben - in that case, it is a definite evolutionary shift of that species. I just had a look at a few Googled images. Notice how the mouth of the flathead cat points up. This would make feeding on live bait easier than rotting food. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted August 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 I love telling this story When i lived in Colorado, 2 of my brother in laws were avid trout fishermen.. We all fished together a lot, and usually for trout.... Being from Texas, i knew nothing about the fish at first... They had many a chuckle watching me struggle to learn and they always out fished me Eventually i got my chuckle when i found a little bass pond and invited them into MY world They set up as they always did, night crawler under a bobber and floating power bait on the bottom... I tied on a zoom trick worm weightless with 2 hooks, fished similar to a jerk bait (one of my all time favorite techniques) A night crawler managed to catch one bass, the power bait nothing... I caught 14... And just to rub it in, i casted right next to one of the bobbers and caught another... Whos laughing now 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted August 29, 2015 Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 I probably should not have used the word "only" as most anything will alter their food source depending on the availability of food. Humans will eat some pretty disgusting stuff given they are hungry enough. Things that will never be found on a country club menu. No doubt animals are the same way. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted August 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 But... If youre fishing for flatheads, you are ONLY going to use live bait because its proven more effective I once caught a bass while catfishing with raw shrimp.. So you're right, never say never... But if im bass fishing, im still leaving the shrimp at home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted August 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2015 All the local fisheries here in Indonesia only permit bait fishing, no lures allowed. Dave There are many lakes (and streams) here in the US completely the opposite... The reasoning is preservation.... Parks and Wildlife have decided lures are safer because fish have a higher tendency to swallow live bait, upping the mortality rate This fact does support my taste argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsworms Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Like JRammit's story, we were fishing a local lake several years ago when we hit this cove with about 15 people fishing from shore. We tried hard to stay away from their lines as we casted towards shore. We must have pulled 8 fish out of that cove before one of the shore fisherman asked what we were using. When I said we were splitshotting 4 inch plastic worms, he said "We're using REAL worms and not catching anything!" Gotta love it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted August 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Another similar story Few years back, while walking across a boat dock, my yougnest son (5 or 6 at the time) spotted a little bass swimmimg along the shore "I wanna catch that fish dad!" he said So i hooked him a minnow and watched as he dropped his bobber in... The bass took a brief look, but swam right past the minnow He made another cast, same result... "Let me see your pole" i said I tied him on a 4" Roboworm with 2 hooks (same as my set up) and showed him how to work it... BOOM! I think that was the 1st fish he ever caught on a lure..... Interesting when you get to actually see the way things unfold.... We both witnessed this fish turn its nose up at wounded live bait, and then hammer an artificial Edited August 30, 2015 by JRammit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsworms Posted August 30, 2015 Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Once again, proving that presentation is the key! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
