Bbob Posted September 6, 2015 Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 For over a year now, I've been fascinated by the roman made swim baits. I tried to make 8in glide bait for bass and pike here in Michigan but ever time I test the lure folds at the joint and won't swim and it sinks like a rock. I was was wondering if someone could explain the joints or the weighing. I don't like the joints on, say, a jointed rapala. I want to make them like the roman made mother. Could anyone help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted September 6, 2015 Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 'Sinks like a rock' is the first clue. What material are you making the body from? Obviously too much ballast weight. Do a Google search on 'Cutting open the 400 dollar Roman'. This is a TackleTour autopsie of the bait. It will help you with the positioning of the ballast. An even spread and low down is what I see. As for the amount of ballast weight, there are a number of methods; from taping pieces of lead to the body and doing float tests, to calculating the ballast which is my preferred method (TU search Archimedes dunk test). Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted September 6, 2015 Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 If you take a look at the weighting you are going to see that in the end you will be float testing and taping, adding, subtracting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonister Posted September 6, 2015 Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 Im not on for glide baits but was just reading in and thought to myself, "oh a good way for this is to buy one (X lure) for yourself and fish it to be able to feel and compare to your own, then try to adjust the bait your making. i saw what vodkamen said and then i decided to google this lure.... the price............ $$$$ haha wow i didnt think a bait could get so expensive (then again some would say we spend more than that on this hobby) but still now i really understand why you would want to make your own. This takes losing a bait to the next level. who knows what desperate measure id go to to get a bait like this back, heck i get upset over loosing a 7$ rapala. If i ever go remotly near Lake biwa im going to have to go for a swim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted September 6, 2015 Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 Roman Swimbait Lure Although a very interesting article, there was lots of critical information that was not gathered, or given that the authors are professional, not published: Wood type/ density of the main body and the cores. The weight of the individual weights or even total ballast weight. Wire diameter and material. Of course, this information could be construed as industrial sabotage, giving too much information to the copyist. If I were hired to do a full analysis of such a bait, I would first make close up video of its action at different speeds, jerks and all the rest. Also I would determine the fall rate and the resting attitude on the video. In the lab, I would calculate the specific gravity (SG) of the lure. This would be all the information that I would require to reproduce the lure. To satisfy the paid autopsy, after a full dimensional analysis, I would then cut the hinge and measure the individual SG of each section, only then would I start cutting into the lure to determine the internals. I would measure the SG of the timbers and determine all the materials. To complete the investigation, I would create a CAD model, which would allow me to modify the ballast geometry to see the effect on the overall balance. This would give me a clue to the design process that arrived at the final solution. Of course, if you were to hire me for such an exercise, the cost of the bait would be insignificant compared with my fee. My thoughts on the bait's construction - a simple design, well balanced, but nothing special compared with what bait designers are doing on TU. The body is probably CNC machined in two halves. This is a slow and expensive process which pushes the price of the product up. Without multiple machines, the production rate is going to be low and so to be able to pay the small work force and make a profit, I would say that the price is about right. I stated in the fourth paragraph all the information that I would need; the material that I made the lure from would not matter. All I would have to achieve would be the overall SG, this would give me the sink rate. The distribution of lead would give me the float angle and this I can determine myself. From the work that I have done on swimbait prototypes, the lead has to be distributed throughout all the sections, such that all have the same SG with hardware fitted and all float level. The ballast is fitted evenly, but my findings, as to the actual distribution of the lead; is that it is not critical. The ballast is fitted low for stability. The shape of the head I believe to be critical, as this is the part that sets up the vortices that power the action of the lure. I design mine with a low tow eye and a blocky forehead to achieve the action. A high eye position with blocky throat design would likely achieve the same, but I need to do a lot more testing. I made a good start with my swimbait investigations but realize that I have a lot more to do. The Roman design has an open mouth. This is a terrific vortex generator solution, but nothing new. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted September 6, 2015 Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 (edited) I am assuming your bait has a shape that will work, that you are adding your ballast as low as possible, and spreading it out to keep it low. If you know the rate of fall you want, begin by getting the front section to fall at that rate, and level. Then get the rear section to do the same. That way, the binding of the hinge joint is minimal and your bait will swim. I was having difficulty with getting my glide baits to glide, until the TU members suggested that to me, and it works. Now making a bait that glides is pretty simple. A hint: a slow rate of fall, like a half a foot a second, is plenty. Any faster, and you can't work the bait slowly. Dave, the Roman Made's mouth is open because it is in shock over how much it's selling for! Edited September 6, 2015 by mark poulson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbob Posted September 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 Hey guys thanks. Can anyone help me with joints though? Im using michigan white pine and I was using 1/2 oz. weights which I think are to big Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted September 6, 2015 Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 Nice bait for sure... Impressive video.... But WHO buys this stuff??? For that price, id expect a motorized bait with a camera in its mouth! Seriously though, i was surprised to see these are only 2 and 3 piece baits.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted September 6, 2015 Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 This product fits the niche market and you have to remember that Japan bass fishing is an entire different $$$$ league. Then you have big bass hunters and while expensive you have to think most really aren't that concerned with 400 bucks. One has to remember there are a lot of guys that drop 50k on a boat and 50 k on a truck to fish 10 weekends a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted September 6, 2015 Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 I'm sure that catching a bass on this bait that tied the world record has nothing to do with the price. Ben 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted September 6, 2015 Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 (edited) I started in this lure design game because I begrudged paying $8 for spoon lure, so there is no chance of finding a Roman in my tackle box and I am sure that most of you feel the same. But, to build and finish a quality swimbait is a lengthy process requiring many craftsman standard skills, knowledge and experience. What is the going rate for these skills, $25ph $50ph. To this has to be added the cost of tools, electricity, housing, tax and all the other overheads. You should work back from how much you sell your quality swimbait lure and find out what you are charging per hour. Most will discover that they are selling themselves short, EXTREMELY short. We are craftsmen trying to compete with cheap mass produced plastic moldings. There are plenty of customers out there who earn a decent wage and would not have a problem shelling out the right money for a quality product - just not me. Let the Chinese cater for the masses, we should be looking after the niche markets, just like Roman is doing. Dave Edited September 6, 2015 by Vodkaman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted September 6, 2015 Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 The new "niche" market could be lure insurance 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattlures Posted September 6, 2015 Report Share Posted September 6, 2015 Kurita caught the world record bass on a live bluegill. He caught a lake record on the mother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 Kurita caught the world record bass on a live bluegill. He caught a lake record on the mother After looking it up online there were conflicting articles about what he caught the world record on. Some say bluegill and others the Roman Mother so I'm not sure. Thought I remembered reading about it right after he caught it and that article said the Mother. Now I'm not sure. Ben 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) In an interview, Kurita does talk about catching an 18Lb bass on the Roman, but states that the joint world record was caught on live bluegill. He is officially tied for the record. You have to beat the record by 2 ounces to qualify for a clear record. Seems a bit strange to me. If you catch a bass 2 ounces under, does that count also, it should. Dave Edited September 7, 2015 by Vodkaman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 @ Matt and Dave Thanks guys. I had it all wrong. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 Ben - a bit harsh on yourself, no need. Just straightening out the facts. It was some interesting reading too. DAve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 I don't mind admitting mistakes when given the facts Dave. And like you said I too ran across some interesting reading while looking up these stories. In one article Kurita talks about seeing a school of 20 pound bass. Makes me want to book a flight to Japan. Ben 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 Ben - I thought that Dotty was just a freak of nature and there was little chance of seeing the like again. But, it seems that I was wrong. Given the right conditions and properly managed water, we will be seeing a lot more monsters. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbob Posted September 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 California or Japan on a swim bait is my guess on what the next world record to be caught on. I expect in the next five years or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) I have no doubt that there are some true behemoths out there Dave, but when you factor in what all it takes for a bass to get that size and then everything that has to go exactly right to catch one that size I'd say the odds were stacked against us. With the drought that's been ongoing out in California it would seem to work against bass growing to world record size. Lower water levels most assuredly make for better fishing. At least in the short term since they are confined to a much smaller area, but the lower water levels also mean a lake isn't going to produce as much forage which means greater competition for the available food supply. That's why I think you won't be seeing the numbers of big fish coming out of California like they have in the past. Texas has been trying to "grow" a world record for quite a long time now by using selective breeding based on genetics. No doubt the stocking of pure Florida strain bass in Texas waters has led to a lot more big bass the folks that operate the Share a Lunker program haven't managed to "grow" one over 20 lbs yet. Not that's been caught anyway. And just stocking pure Florida strain bass is not the whole answer either. Climate, available forage species, fishing pressure, predation, etc. all have to be included into the equation as well. When you look at all the things working against a fish growing to world record size it's a wonder there are as many giant bass caught as there are. I'll pass the "soapbox" to the next poster now. Ben Edited September 7, 2015 by RayburnGuy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimininfl Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Dave, check out the blog "CARPE TRUTTA" (SEIZE THE TROUT), carpetrutta.blogspot.com. While most of the blog centers on Trout fishing The author goes through every step (with photos) on how to construct a two piece, PVC lure similar to a Roman lure. In addition, he discusses the steps to make decals with which to paint the lure. It is fun to read, the author has a good sense of humor. This is the best example I have found on making a lure similar to the one you wish to build. Good luck, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Bbob - I guess we didn't answer your question, which you patiently asked twice! The hinge on the Roman is a simple twisted 'eye-to-eye' affair. Nothing fancy here. The joint is a rear facing Vee, cut concave on the forward section and convex on the rear section, at a sharper Vee. The angular difference between the front and read Vee determines the angular movement of the lure. The reason for the concave Vee in the front section, is to hide the hinge from view, purely an aesthetic thing. I did some tests with forward and rear facing Vee joints; the rear facing Vee (like the Roman) produces a much more pronounced action. Here is a link to the article about the Roman Autopsy. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattlures Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 I met Kurita when he came to the USA and stayed at a buddies house. He told us about seeing bigger bass then the one he caught. He was cool. He had his interprature with him. He also brought his tackle box. His baits looked kinda funky with feathered hooks and weird colors. He showed us the bait he caught the lake record on to. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Years ago I made some reverse joint swimbaits, as a test of the jointing. I found the reverse joints didn't move as well at low speed. http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/gallery/image/4214-reversed-joint-7-trout/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
