Want To Build A 10-11' 3Pc, Light Surface Rod For Free Lining Carp 4-15Lbs

[Dave Rennie]

Hi, this is my first post on the forum.

 

During the warmer months I enjoy free lining for carp on the surface of a couple of small local ponds.

The fish range between 4-15lbs.

 

I've tried 4 different commercial rods so far, none have been great.

 

I don't know much about rods, but I'd like to have a go at building one that is perfectly suited to this job.

 

This is what I'm looking for.

 

: 10-11'  3pc to fit in the boot of a car when travelling with family.

 

: Suited for mono from 6-10lbs, and sometimes braid to 0.23mm.

 

: Hook setting potential. So far a float rod with a through action and soft cushioning tip has worked best.

 

: Casting range. This is a priority. I need to be able to cast a free line small bait (around 1gram) as far as possible. Do guides and tip ring diameter play a big part in casting range?

 

: Strong enough to cope with hard fighting carp upto 15lb, but still be fun with smaller fish of 4lbs.

 

: Light enough to carry in the hand all day (it will be paired with a Shakespeare Supreme 035 reel).

 

Is there anything else I should be taking into consideration? 

 

I live in the UK, so may have less selection of blanks to choose from without importing.

 

I'll be very grateful for any advise given regarding suitable blanks/guides and tips to achieving my goal with the build.

 

Thanks

Dave

[Braided Line]

Dave

 

  You didn`t mention what kind of experience you have in rod building. 

[Dave Rennie]

Hi, I don't have any experience in rod building, but I've whipped a few tip eyes back on.

 

I have posted this question on another forum.

So far Steelhead blanks have been suggested, and "American Tackle Microwave guide system" for aiding with casting.

[Musky Glenn]

The hard part in buying what you want is the fact that blanks don't feel the same after you add eyes. I would suggest you find a finished rod that meets your requirements and write down all the information concerning recommended line, lure weight. Notice the power rating and anything else that might influence the action of the rod, then buy a blank with those ratings. Good luck, it's really not that hard to do.

[Dave Rennie]

Thanks Glenn,

 

Before considering building a rod, I contacted lots of tackle shops and online shops for a 3pc 10-11' rod.

It appears the manufacturers don't make 3pc rods anymore.

 

Secondly, dedicated surface rods that are available are too heavy for my needs. More like broom sticks.

 

I'll be buying the blanks based on recommendation, as there are no stockists near me.

 

Thanks

Dave

[Vodkaman]

You should check out the UK carp sites, they have taken carp fishing to a science. I am sure you will find your answer there.

In the US, carp fishing tends to be treated with some disdain whereas in the UK, carp fishing is revered, just like LMB in the US.

Dave

[Dave Rennie]

Thanks Dave, I'll give that a go. 

[robn510]

I have a buddy who uses a switch/spey fly rod made into a spinner (10-11 weight)

might work for what you are wanting to do.

definetely check out the english/european carp fishing sites, theyre very technical when it comes to carpin'

[Dave Rennie]

Thanks Rob,

 

I posted the same question on another forum, and a few people have recommended a 2 hand fly rod blank.

I thought the action of a fly rod would be too sloppy for this application.

And the two handed fly rods I've found in google images don't seem suitable (reel seat positioning too far down), but maybe that can be built the way I want it.

 

I'm not sure what to do with this project now, as It's going to be impossible to try a blank before I buy, so it's got too much risk attached.

 

Thanks

Dave

[jrav]

Dave, it's Joe from the RB thread and I'll try to get some pics on this thread in the near future with regard to handles.  Tom's site has a gallery section, but I'm more familiar with this format for uploading on a laptop.  

 

Took a look at some of your stuff on some UK forums and the build styles they use, it's definitely a different kind of carp rod were speaking of on this.  My handles are quite short compared to what you have in the pics, may take me a bit but I'll get them up here.

Edited September 22, 2015 by jrav

[Dave Rennie]

Hi Joe, I'd love to see some pics of the handles thanks.

 

Ideally I'd like the handle to be long enough to rest the butt on my elbow when playing a fish. So the bottom part of the handle below the reel seat would be about 30-35cm, and the top part of the handle only about 5cm.

 

I've been working abroad for the last 10 days, back home this Thurs, then I'll make some phone calls and see what 3pc 10-11' 5-6wt blanks I can get hold of.

 

Thanks

Dave

[jrav]

OK, disregard the backyard sunflower pic above, it just happened to be on the screen and I needed a test photo fast (I like backyard birds).

 

Here's a couple rods side by side with a tape measure (click on photo for larger size)

 

Bottom one is actually a coated cork handle with better diameter for larger fish and a flattop butt.  It's a tape-on, cleans easy and doesn't dig into the hand.  Next pic is the position of flat-top butt and why I like it for landings or side running bank fish.  Self explanatory for carping.

 

Odd pic in the mirror below, but it shows the shape of the butt a bit better from two angles.

 

Overhead shot of the two pieces of the 9' 8wt rig for relative guide size on blank.

 

I keep guides small, step them down fast, and finalize position based on the behavior of the rod while fighting the fish.  Sometimes I alter the position butt guide if the blank bends deeply and puts the line at an odd angle to the reel.  Hence the low, small guide...it keeps the line path where I like under load.  

 

Yeah, they are a lot different than some of what folks consider proper carp rods, but I fish with rod in hand most of the time.  Light, strong, and easier to work with for many species.  

 

To reiterate, I use only light braid on these rigs and have not tried it with mono.  Don't think mono would work near as well for casting.   

Edited September 22, 2015 by jrav

[Dave Rennie]

Thanks very much Joe!

 

The butt lengths are exactly what I had in mind, and I like what you've done with the flat top butt, nice Idea!

 

I'm trying to convert braid sizes. You say on the other forum you use 2/10 PowerPro, what does that equate to in dia mm, or breaking strain?

Most people in the UK dislike braid for carping as it can cut into the flesh if the fish wraps itself. I haven't had that experience when using it, but did notice I had far more control over the end line.

 

After seeing and hearing about your set up, I'm very interested, and think I'll give a fly blank a go.

 

So, I'm looking for a 10-11', 3-4 piece blank.

Which weight rod would be best for fish average 6lbs? 4, 5 ,6wt?

Should I look for a blank with a more moderate or fast action?

 

Thanks again

Dave

[jrav]

PowerPro has a pretty good standard and metric list of attributes, just google PowerPro specs and it usually pops up.  The 2/10 is .006” or 0.13 mm where in USA the 2/10 designation means “2lb test diameter and 10 lb breaking strength”.  The whole mono diameter thing they use is more advertising and rather dubious as monos (and any line) differ significantly in diameters from brand to brand.   Hence, I disregard the mono-equivalent BS.

 

With slightly larger guides than I use, you probably will see an increase in distance, I just didn’t need them for most of my fishing.  My rods get built and altered several times over the years and are always a work in progress, the ideal butt guides would be low frame and slightly larger rings.  The fat cork handle was a quick whip-up experiment with mediocre rings that worked well enough to stay on to his day.  Certainly could be done with a number of materials and styles to suit one.  Fat or skinny reelseats?  How’s the weather? You get the idea, I like the skinny reel seats for winter carping in creeks with gloves on.  Fatties are a summer grip.

 

The ambiguities of flyrod action?  Well, they are all kinda moderate and I like to go for something vaguely described as mod-fast or fast in the 7-8wt range for carp.  For one, a 4lber is plenty of fun on an 8wt and the rod will protect a 6-10lb fluoro leader pretty well on rolling fish, even at higher weights these blanks are not all that stiff and unyielding.  If you’re always going light on lines, say 4-6lb, a 6wt might be a better idea but either will likely work at the length you are looking at.

 

My reason for liking the 8wt in mod-fast is the power and flex characteristics it leaves in the butt when playing fish.  When a big carp gets in close and stays stubborn, I’ll put the rod lateral and to the side to change pull angles and it makes most carp do a turn around.  Once they turn, switch hands and opposite angles of pressure, they turn again only this time they are a little closer.  Essentially, I flip-flop and topple them in for landing by virtue of confusion and disorientation.  A direct tug’o’war in the last phase of the fight goes on forever, the switch angle ploy with longer rods defeats them by disorientation in a fraction of the time and provides nice energetic releases.  Yes, I do extend arms out when doing this for max angle change and the ergonomic flat-top butt was born of this tactic.  No sore spots on arm after a long day, wrists feels great.

 

The faster actions hold more butt stiffness and work better as a longer lever (side reach) under load for this.  Soft, overly moderate actions tend to bend too deeply and shorten the overall side-to-side length for effective angle changes.  Faster is a slightly better tool for this ploy, thus my rejection of most soft-butt steelhead rods.  A strange trick with large carp, but it works incredibly well to conclude the sulking part of the fight.  Trickery trumps the stubborn spirit, 

 

With a 10-11’ blank, I think you could do quite well in any action designation simply due to the overall length and would leave it openminded to even the more moderate actions.  Even if you put the handle up further, you still have awesome length to use on the fish.

[Dave Rennie]

Thanks again Joe, You've been very helpful!

 

I've just posted a question on a UK based Fly forum asking for recommendations sourcing a local blank.

 

I'll update this and the other thread when I get further along (and may bend your ear again for an opinion on blanks that have been suggested).

 

Thanks

Dave

[robn510]

Great topic here guys i'm getting inspired to make up something similar for surf perch. 

 

Dave have you taken a look at center pin rods yet? You would need to find one with moderate/fast action for casting distance and change the guides out to spinning but otherwise..

They somewhat fit your criteria

 

and a modded center pin rod isnt brutally expensive as a high end fly rod blank...

 

good luck

[jrav]

Hope it's going well, Dave...long and light blanks are pricey, ain’t they?   Try Pacific Bay Rainforest II series or similar by PacBay, they have some 10’ rods in 3 piece that are more reasonable than most.  An 11’ blank is going to get a bit nasty in price and are usually a good bit heavier.  

  

Most important thing to realize with freelining is that any rod blank which will load “properly” with light baits such as a dog food niblet or a few kernels of corn…is not going to unload with much energy or zing when released for the cast.  It’s easy come, easy go.  This is largely why I don’t worry so much about the tips being extra flexible or light when casting extremely light baits, it simply doesn’t add much to the overall casting distance.  

 

This is also why I inquired about the “sloppy” thing mentioned elsewhere about various rods.  Go too light on the tip, you’ll get end-of-cast waggle even with blanks that have great damping.  Doesn’t matter as much when launching a 1/4 oz lure or weight, but against the slight momentum of a light offering in flight, tip waggle will rob you of distance.  Doesn’t take much waggle or residual bounce to do it and tips that load at such light weights tend to go wild on you at the end of a cast stroke.  

 

Think “acceleration during the casting stroke (long/light blank)” and “good damping at the end of stroke” and you’ll get where you’re trying to go while still having the power to deal with carp.  Popular rodbuilding theory doesn’t really address casting such light baits at distance to such large fish outside of flyfishing.  It’s the path less traveled with spinning builds and the directions can seem strange, but it works well.

 

Waggle is the enemy, do not interfere with the flight once released and it'll fly further.

[Dave Rennie]

Great topic here guys i'm getting inspired to make up something similar for surf perch. 

 

Dave have you taken a look at center pin rods yet? You would need to find one with moderate/fast action for casting distance and change the guides out to spinning but otherwise..

They somewhat fit your criteria

 

and a modded center pin rod isnt brutally expensive as a high end fly rod blank...

 

good luck

Hi Rob,

 

Thanks for the suggestion.

I hadn't considered it, but I think I've found a fly rod blank suitable, and I’m going to give it a shot.

 

What characteristics are you looking for in your surf perch build?

 

 

Dave

[Dave Rennie]

Hi Joe,

 

Everything you said above makes perfect sense.

I want a blank that has quite a fast recovery, but that becomes soft when setting the hook.

 

As you mentioned in another post regarding it not always being the case that softer tips will cast the furthest. From my own limited experience, a 9'6" ledger rod cast the dog biscuit the furthest, and that had a stiffer tip than any other rods I tried for this purpose. However, it was slightly too stiff for setting the hook. Ideally I want to tick both of these boxes.

 

Anyway, a quick update.

 

I've contacted UK based blank dealer/rod builder regarding this project named Mick Bell.

His company is called Bloke Rods and he's very well renowned.

 

He’s recommended a 10' 4pc Toray 50 million modulus in a 4 weight, which Mick describes as parabolic with middle to tip action on the fast side.

 

I've sent him snippets of our conversation regarding recommended rod weights of 6-7wt, and your reasons for recommending that weight for my intended purpose, and he's going to read over it and get back to me.

 

Here’s the 4wt that Mick has recommended:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291553770108?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Here’s the 6wt that I’m considering:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291553769261?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Today I was in a tackle shop and had a quick waggle of a Ron Thompson 9’ 2pc 7-8wt.

I was amazed at how fast the action was compared to fly rods I remember holding years ago!

 

My mind is made up. I’m just waiting to hear back from Mick (and from yourself if you’ve got any feedback on the blanks I’ve mentioned above).

 

Regarding guides, I've been reading up on the microwave system and want to give that a go.

 

I see you've got 10 guides on your 9' rod (the photo of your rod lay on the floor), so would 11 guides be advised for a 10' rod, in similar placing as in your photo?

 

You say you go down on size fast from 16mm - 6, but suggested slightly bigger if I was using mono?

Do you have any idea which size microwave guides would work best with the set up I'm planning?

 

Thanks again for your help. It’s great to hear from someone who understands what I want to achieve and has been there themselves.

 

 

Dave

[jrav]

I can’t tell you much about the Bloke/Toray blanks and they really don’t give all that much info on any sites, but it’s a nice price and would probably be a fine way to explore this idea.  I’d go for the 6wt option and no lower for a carp rod, better for the larger fish and you know how small bait carping goes, there’s always a big one in there somewhere.

 

My guide placement and number is based primarily on a standard chart for starters and then altered if needed to suit the blank/build.  Don’t like overloading a blank with guides and on these long blanks it doesn’t seem necessary.  Distance from the reel to butt is always based on the load when fighting a fish for me, very different from others in this regard who have other points of view.  I use braid exclusively, it’s near no memory and goes where it’s told very well.  With mono, you’ve got memory and this strongly influences guide strategy and placement, especially coming off the reel and into the guides.  

 

The way I do things is really only practical with braid and I don't use mono anymore.  The Microwave idea may work well, some say it is only of marginal benefit, I’ve never tried it.  If using mono, talk to them and give it a shot.  The guides will be larger and likely heavier, but probably not by much overall.  Don’t be afraid to “dry wrap” some guides (especially butt guides) and do some fishing to see how they perform.  You may find a few experiments are better than any formula for getting it right, especially with regard to spacing on a 4-piece rod.  Sometimes I adjust the overall spacing a bit to clear the ferrules without odd varience and it works fine.  

 

Remember…it’s an exact science until you ask 5 more people, then you have 5 more ways that are right!  There’s some freedom on this stuff.  Best thing to do is to buy a few more smaller guides than you think is needed, and a few different styles of butt guide for the transition and play around on the water with them for a while.    Yeah, it would be nice to have an exact idea, but these builds are mostly uncharted territory in a lot of ways and we are pushing it forward a bit.  The lines and reels differ as well, build for what you are using by experimentation on your blank. 

 

Most importantly, don’t get attached to any particular spacing or theory in general until you do a mark-up on the layout.  Take a strip of wide masking tape, about 30” long and stick it to a table top or similar.  Now, if 2” equals 1’ (or metric if preferred) you can do a quick sketch-up picture on the build right there.  Mark the ferrule junctions FIRST, then the proposed spacing arrangements…see what I mean?  All guide spacing theories execute perfectly on 1 piece blanks, not so tough on 2 piece builds, either.  Get into 3-4 piece builds and you can see how ferrules and guides can end up in the same locations or too near one another.  That’s the reality with multi-piece builds for guide placement and it’s quite a puzzle sometimes, you’ll likely diverge a bit from any initial idea based on this factor.   Rarely spoken of, yet I’d wager it influences a lot more guide spacing than many would care to admit.  Theory v/s Practice in Reality.

[Dave Rennie]

Hi Joe,

Thanks again for your continued help on this. I really appreciate it.

I spoke again with Mick today after he'd read our conversation.

I've ordered a blank!

I've gone for the 5wt, as Mick says the 5 is considerably faster than the 6 he stocks (waggle is the enemy) and he assures me it will be plenary strong enough for the bigger end fish in my ponds. He's offered to exchange the blank for a 6 if I'm not happy with it.

So, things are moving.

Thanks for the tip with the masking tape layout for guides and ferrules, great idea.

Rather than dry whipping the guides for testing, could I use insulation tape instead?

I will go for the Microwave system, as I'll regret it later if I don't. Even if it only gives me an extra few feet, it'll be worth having (and good to try them out before I start on my 2nd rod project).

Seems they aren't available here in the UK, so these may take a week or two to arrive from the States once I figure out which set to buy.

Now I can start ordering the other bits and bobs that I'll be need to turn Dave's Supercalafragalistic Surface Sniper into a reality.

I'll keep this thread up to date throughout the process.

[jrav]

Rather than dry whipping the guides for testing, could I use insulation tape instead?

 

Yep.  Reason I didn’t mention it is because there are so many types and some work, some don’t around water.  I’ve even used a product called plumbing repair tape which is a non-adhesive stretch tape that bonds to itself.  A quick change on the water?  Take a flytying bobbin with you and do a quick wrap and tape. Doesn’t need to be neat or complete, simply sneak the tag end under the guide foot and tie off without need for whips or nice finish moves.  On a multi-piece blank the short sections allow one to reach any guide (especially the butt guides) for bobbin use.  

 

Face it, you’re a fisherman and casting experiments on the water usually lead to fish catching experiments, hence temporary but secure guide wraps.  A quick 10 wraps of thread helps here before taping and is actually easier in the long run for getting things lined-up correctly.  Tape alone wanders and wiggles even when tight, annoyingly hard to tape little guide feet securely without a bit of thread first.

 

I didn’t realize it at the time, but if you’ve never built a rod before you might not know of spacing charts and methods.  Readily available charts and they all look quite similar for most flyblanks.  A good starter layout and gives an idea of how guides are typically or progressively spaced.

 

 

This is good to see others exploring this idea and it’ll be interesting to know how the microwave system and mono works outside of shorter rods and bass lures.  Even if the 5 wt isn’t ideal for your immediate needs, I’d keep the build and tweak it over time.  These types of rods tend to find some great uses and applications even if the initial species intent/use doesn’t work as well as dreamed.  If you ever jump from this weight, jump by 2-3 line weights up or down as flyrods typically change in small increments relative other tackle.  A 5 and 6 are usually pretty close in many ways for spinning purposes, the fiver will probably serve you fine.

 

This is shaping-up to be a very fun rod for smaller carp, you're gonna love the lightness in hand when catching smaller fish as much or more than the casting attributes.  

[Dave Rennie]

Thanks Joe,

 

I’ll give the dry whipping/tape combo a go.

 

I think I'll stick with braid on this outfit actually.

I have PP on my other outfits and much prefer it over mono.

 

I've got a busy work schedule for the coming month or so, but I'm itching to getting started with this project when I’ve got the time.

The blank has been shipped today, and I’ve got a good idea for components I’ll use for the rest of the build.

 

Firstly I’m going to make a modular table top work station that will switch between a hand wrapper, a rod dryer (using a mirror ball motor) and a mini lathe (using a drill).

 

Yes this is going to be lots of fun!

For the last year or so I’ve been fishing exclusively with lures that I’ve made myself.

It’s a real pleasure to catch with tackle you’ve knocked up.

Fishing on a rod that I’ve built will enhance the satisfaction.

 

I’ve already got plans for my next rod builds.

The second will be a very light drop shot rod for bank fishing with switchable tips, then a heavy lure rod for pike (around 50-150g CW).

Both these new outfits will open up new avenues for future lure creations.

[Dave Rennie]

Just thought I'd update this thread.

 

The blank has arrived.

First impressions are that it's going to work a treat.

It's very thin. Fast. Strong. Light.

Not at all what I considered a fly rod to feel like.

 

It has the same aesthetics as another rod that I've got that is built on a Toray blank.

It looks plain until the sun hits it, then all of the beauty of the carbon is revealed.

 

I'm looking forward to getting started.