mark poulson Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) I recently had a bunch of lures to test. I had already installed the hardware, including the split rings at the line tie. In order to make switching lures easier (did I ever mention that I'm lazy?), I tied a round snap to my test rod and just hooked the snap into the split ring. The baits all ran well, but I'm wondering if adding both connectors in line affected how the lures performed. Just thinking about it, I would think the only difference would be the small added weight of the snap to the bills, but the water isn't clear here, so I can't tell if having the two pivoting connectors in line makes the lure more stable, or less, or doesn't even affect it at all. I know adding a split ring to a jointed swimbait, instead of a direct tie, enhances the ability of the lure to do a 180 degree turn on a sharp jerk/pause, so I'm wondering if using both might give me a false reading of the lure's stability. And I've found the larger the split ring I use, the wider the wiggle of a lure. I know the logical thing to do is to test one of them each way, with and without the snap, but it's cold, and like I said, I'm lazy. Plus, I'm hoping someone here has a "scientific" answer to discuss. Edited November 10, 2015 by mark poulson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass100 Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 I test all mine in my tank the same way you are doing it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted November 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 I test all mine in my tank the same way you are doing it. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 I don't use the split ring, but I can see how that would add more freedom to the motion. I make my own quick releases for testing, as there is no danger of losing a lure in the test tank. I need to come up with a quick release design that is small, tidy, made from thin SS wire, as secure as the shop bought but easier to use. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted November 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Dave, Maybe you could make one that's like the twist wire that Mustad uses for their interchangeable hook connectors: http://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Mustad_Fastach_Football_Weight/descpage-FOM.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Bob - I want to make my own. The snaps that are available here, I find very tedious to use. Mark - here is a link to the design that I am currently using. I found it from your link above. Making from soft SS, there is some distortion when playing with a 6Lb piranha, also my creations were a bit large and clumsy. I think if I can make the clip smaller with the same SS wire, it will have more stiffness to reduce the distortion. I haven't spent any time on it so far, I found a solution and stopped there. I need to give it more thought, to develop the tooling required to make the design smaller and easy to manufacture. It is another job on the list. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted November 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Dave, A 6lb piranha? That must be like fighting an angry horse! I would have needle nose pliers with looooong handles to remove the hook! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Bob and Mark - Locally, the fish is called Bawal. It is not actually a piranha, but looks very like one and the mouth and teeth are the same. The jaws are incredibly strong and not somewhere that you want to let your fingers wander. The head was very bony and a real struggle to retrieve the hook without damage. Electricians standard long nose pliers got the job done. I lost so many fish when the line touched the teeth. Next time I fish for bawal I will be using wire traces. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 The Duo-Lock snaps that Bob mentioned are the best I've found and believe me when I say I've tried a bunch of different brands. Some would weaken over time while others would open due to poor design. I've been using them for a couple decades now and have caught multiple bass over 10 lbs. on them. Haven't lost a big fish yet due to the Duo-Lock snaps failing. The wire is also smaller than the doubled wire of a split ring so it's my belief that it frees the lure up more than a split ring. I don't even bother putting split rings on the line ties of the baits I build and if I happen to buy a lure, or somebody gives me one, the first thing I do is remove the split ring before fishing it. The confidence level is that high using the Duo-Locks. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 those mustad snaps work great i use them..there really good for crappies when using a bobber and minnows..i like them a lot better then the snap loc style.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose77 Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 Hey guys, when I've used a split ring and snap at the same time there's been trouble with the lures fouling on the cast. It's worse with wind and light lures. Cheers, Ed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimP Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) Mark: Consider this, Take a finished lure minus the eyelet split ring. Attach a small Duo-Lock snap to your line and connect to the lure and test. I think the Duo-Lock snap on your line connected directly to the eyelet should give about the same weight/action as a split ring attached to your line. That should give you quick change for testing several lures and if everything checks out just pop on a split rings and it ready to fish. If it works we might never attach a split ring to the lure, just a Duo-Lock snap or something like one tied directly to our line. From the chart I found on line even the smallest snap is rated for 20#. That surprised me! Maybe Vodkaman can invent a smaller version of the Duo-Lock or something like one. Edited November 11, 2015 by JimP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimP Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) Mark: Consider this, Take a finished lure minus the eyelet split ring. Attach a small Duo-Lock snap to your line and connect to the lure and test. I think the Duo-Lock snap on your line connected directly to the eyelet should give about the same weight/action as a split ring attached to your line. That should give you quick change for testing several lures and if everything checks out just pop on a split rings and it ready to fish. If it works we might never attach a split ring to the lure, just a Duo-Lock snap or something like one tied directly to our line. From the chart I found on line even the smallest snap is rated for 20#. That surprised me! Maybe Vodkaman can invent a smaller version of the Duo-Lock or something like one. Opps: Guys don't use the word "p o p" in your post. The software will convert it to "Plaster of Paris" as in line five of the original post. To "Plaster of Paris" on a split ring is not a good idea. Edited November 11, 2015 by JimP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 JimP - I am playing with a couple of designs right now. BUT, I need some dimensions to see what I am supposed to be working towards. outside length and wire diameter Metric or inches is fine, what ever works for you. Contributions from anyone would be appreciated. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 V-Man as you know I test everything I use. But I haven't found out the effect of a snap connection. I'm like Mark, a little lazy, mainly tho it's for the speed of testing. During fishing I do not use a snap connector. I do use a split ring for an more true movement, my weight calculations takes this into consideration of this material but only a guess of a effect of a snap. By reading this thread I'm going to slow down on my testing and tie to the bait as I do when fishing, from this point forward. At this point in my learning of how to make baits, I'm trying to get close to slow rising (floating) or falling of my baits. With the knowledge of a true suspending bait, is almost impossible in all conditions. No more snaps for me. Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) I always fish with a snap, probably because when I am fishing, it is also a bait testing session too. The bait that I am developing now (soft plastic) will require attachment by leader, so my quick release requirements are slightly different. The design is close to completion, I am just solving a couple of manufacture issues which require a design change. Even though it is not applicable to attaching lures, I will post it here for comment, in the hope that it triggers more ideas. PS - solved the tooling issue without design change. Length of connector 12mm, wire dia 0.72mm. Dave Edited November 11, 2015 by Vodkaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) Here is the lure version. This quick release will probably do both applications. Again, 12mm length and 0.72mm diameter wire. Easy to make, I reckon about one minute per build. This version would tend to open under load, but I can wind the top wire underneath the wrap and hook the end so that it latches under load. I posted this too quick before thinking it through. More work to be done. Dave Edited November 11, 2015 by Vodkaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted November 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 JimP, I used the snap with the split ring because I was too lazy to remove the split rings first. Snaps weigh next to nothing, but I'm thinking the additional pivot point by using both in line may act like a self-centering connection, and skew my testing. I did catch a 3lb bass on one of my test casts, so maybe I should just shut up and use both all the time! Hahaha Seriously, the reason I don't fish with snap more is that I've found I retie less with a snap, so the knot gets a lot more stress. Now that I've said that, I realized that I don't retie with a chatterbait until I've caught a good fish, so maybe I'm being overly cautious. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted November 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 Dave, You truly are an engineer! You can't let something slide without improving it just a little. I've never had a Snap Lock snap open up on a fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 Mark - I have been caught out with the 'old knot' thing. Short bike ride to the water, a short 6ft 2-piece rod, no reason to break the tackle down. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) Here in Europe we barely go without some kinda snap connecting our lures , simply because the use of toothproof leaders is essential almost everywhere , since there hardly isn't any swim not holding toothy pike . There also are quite a few sophisticated snap designs around,.......perfectly designed to be safe against accidental opening , but most are a pain in the butt to me to open or close to switch lures . The widely used , simple snap hook swivels are not suited for lures , as the kinda triangular and pointy bend of the snap hinders free movements of the lure ,...maybe only inline spinners and spinnerbaits could be attached to these without losing part of their action , but also their rated pull strength is the poorest of all snapswivels available over here . This is why I also prefer using those Duolock snaps pictured above , as they are not complicated to use and same time do offer a fairly good grade of security , .....also they come cheaper compared to other models . But , .....the Duolocks may accidentally open as well under certain circumstances, ....these are when utilizing them as connectors lead through two holes through a metal deep diving lip on vintage style crankbaits , ......and also when connecting bigger and heavy glidebaits to them . In first case they may open under the strain of a fish because the forward pointing closing end of the snap would tilt against the forward hole through the lip , ...but this can be avoided by switching the snap around with the closing end pointing rearward AND bending the little overlapping snap hook close(no disconnecting neccessary since being used as a lure component in this case) . The second , much more hazardous case , would be when utilizing Duolocks to connect large and heavy glidebaits , ......when working these lures , the fairly large snap at the end of a single strand wire leader(large size essential due to the strain on this heavy gear) might get to tilt around the tow eye and due to the force of the jerks required to work such heavy lures they might open to lose your lure this way(been there, done that) , ........even when not opening, they would at least waste your cast , because your glidebait would not swim correctly anymore . So , to avoid this hazard , it would be a good idea to rig a splitring to such lures' tow eyes and connect the snap to the splitring , .......I'm pretty much certain ,that on particular lure models(no matter what gliders, jerkbaits or crankbaits) a splitring switched inbetween snap and tow eye would improve the swimming action , at least won't do any harm either , .....provided being chosen in a matching pull strength . I also have one particular homemde deep diving minnow bait sporting a deep diving , oval Lexan bill , .......the Duolocks at the end of the seven strand wire leader or also on 1,0mm hardmono leaders also tends to tilt with the line tie located at the center of the lip , ...never opened accidentally , though ,..... guess , because no heavy jerking involved like being done with glidebaits , ...but many casts with this proven lure of mine had been wasted due to snap fouling , .....before I've finally slid a matching splitring over the tow eye . Just my , .........greetings , Dieter Edited November 11, 2015 by diemai 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimP Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 JimP - I am playing with a couple of designs right now. BUT, I need some dimensions to see what I am supposed to be working towards. outside length and wire diameter Metric or inches is fine, what ever works for you. Contributions from anyone would be appreciated. Dave Dave: I think shorter should be a goal for the design Along with a streamline design to reduce snagging debris. Also a variety of sizes are in order. The smallest that will match the line your fishing with should be used. The tensile strength of the wire will dictate wire diameter I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 JimP - I agree. I am designing on CAD, as this allows me to rotate the model in real time and easily adjust the individual lengths, diameters etc. It also helps me visualize the tooling jig and helps visualize the construction operations. I can adjust all the elements to achieve the smallest possible design for that wire diameter. Really, the only real purpose of the cad model is to give me the distance between the two eye centers, for the jig. The model below is for lure attachment and has a length of 11mm with 0.72mm SS wire. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimP Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 JimP - I agree. I am designing on CAD, as this allows me to rotate the model in real time and easily adjust the individual lengths, diameters etc. It also helps me visualize the tooling jig and helps visualize the construction operations. I can adjust all the elements to achieve the smallest possible design for that wire diameter. Really, the only real purpose of the cad model is to give me the distance between the two eye centers, for the jig. The model below is for lure attachment and has a length of 11mm with 0.72mm SS wire. q4.JPG Dave You might have something there. Am I correct that it takes a bit of force to open the loose end eyelet enough to insert the lure along with about three changes in direction to allow the lure to freely hang in the eyelet? That looks good, great use of wire, one inch at a time. I might try to hand make one and get back with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 JimP - wait a bit longer. The design has progressed a little more. The last image was V3, I have just finished V5. I have also designed the jig block. Next job is to produce two manufacture models, showing the progression of the bends. Unfortunately, with no workshop, I cannot try this out for you first. Yes, a little force has to be applied to push the lure eye through. This prevents any chance of the lure slipping off. Also, any load applied will close the snap tighter, giving more security. The V5 design allows the snap to be compressed/manipulated without wire ends sticking your thumb. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
