SW Lures Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Ok, I've search for questions and answers that I'm looking for in the forums, but I have not found them. So here I am to ask some questions about bills/lips. I understand some about body design, weight locations and tow eye placement. What I need to know about is the lips. I found that square lips do very well with deep divers. But when I put a paddle shape lip on the same lure with the same weight and location, the bait just did not have the same action. So this got me thinking, do they act different and how. I don't have the time at this moment to experiment with each type of lip shape. I have divided the lip shapes that I have seen into categories so I can describe them quickly. They are sqaure, paddle (includes pointed, oval etc.), box and modified square (coffin shape). Then there is the hybrid bent lips (concave and convex). I know they change in the action and depth. My question is, is there a way to know or is it this a learning curve again? Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Ive built several square bills and a few round bills so far The square bills seem more stable and easier to get running true..... They can handle more water pressure before blowing out and produce a more aggressive wobble (Y action)... But, they also need more speed to activate the oscillation The round bills seem to start swimming at a slower speed and give the bait more of a wiggle (X action)... But they havnt been as kind to me at higher speeds as the squares have Btw, Vodkaman has an awsome video about this on YouTube Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 We all ask this question. When I asked it, I built a set of lures and did a video of the result. There is more to lip shape than just how it swims though. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mohawkman Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Excellent video, Dave! Music was great too, one of my favorite songs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted December 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) @ JR I agree with the speed, but when I moved the tow eye out on the lip it made a positive difference. @ V-Man I saw a subtle change in each change of a few baits. At this point I'm thinking that it is all depending on design of the bill, but mainly the design of the body that will best match the lip. Which will take experimenting with each design. If this is the case, then it is what it is. So I will have to take the time to find the best result for each design. ie: shape, length, angle, location and tow eye location for each design. Am I right in my thoughts? One thing that is good, I got the deep diver at its optimum design that I was looking for. Also I'm starting to paint now to. They should be ready for my fishing trip in the spring. I'm making my friends some to, as requested by them. V-Man I really like the action of that lure!!! I also like the way you tucked the tow eye under the nose of the lure. This location has a lot to do with that action, IMO. Am I right? Thank you Dale Edited December 3, 2015 by DaleSW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 The lure's action is a three way balance between the lip, body and the tow eye position. If you want to keep one, you can play with the other two. In the case of the video, I decided on the lip size and location, and the body. Therefore I only had the tow eye to play with to get the balanced action. That is how the eye ended up under the nose. If you decide you like the eye on the end of the nose and you like the body, then you only have the lip to play with. You can shorten, lengthen, change angle, move it forward, move it back, make it wider, narrower and probably more. With a lot of tedious prototyping, you will eventually find A solution that works, and there are many solutions. Simply moving the eye location up and down is the easiest way, requiring the least work to find the balance. You could argue that not finding the balance so that the eye is on the tip of the nose, is lazy, and you might upset a lot of builders. I see the lure merely a tool for catching fish. A complex balancing problem that requires a solution with the minimum number of prototypes - I move the eye. If I was going to design a bait that was going to be mass produced thousands of times by injection molded plastic, I might feel obliged to go the extra mile and find one of the nose tip solutions. In this case..... Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 I had to laugh when I read Dave's last post, because of how different our approaches are. He uses his brain first, and I use my eye and hands. But we both seem to get to the same place, eventually. It just takes me a little longer. When I started making lures, I use successful commercial lures as a starting point, and learning tool. I would pick a lure I wanted to imitate, measure it, weigh it, float test it, and then try and make a similar lure that worked. Once I got one that worked, I began changing different things, like lip size, shape, and angle, to see how it affected the successful lure I'd already made. If the modified lure didn't perform, I'd begin playing with the ballast first, to see how that affected the lure, because that was the easiest thing for me to adjust without changing the lure's shape and lip shape. The next thing I'd play with would be line tie location. Actually, thanks to Dave and Dieter, I began building prototypes with multiple line ties, so I could play around with them more easily. The last thing I would play with would be lip shape and size, because it really hard to make a lip longer or fatter again, once you've shaved it down. When I'd get a lure to work, I'd sit back and try to understand why it worked. As opposed to Dave, who understands why it works from the start. It's really hard not to hate him, but I'm trying! Hahaha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Mark - well it really doesn't matter how we get there, and as you have written, you explore and learn from the process too. It also demonstrates to all the budding lure designers, that there is more than one way to skin this cat. I enjoy my process very much, as I am sure you do yours - nuff said Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 But I am soooo jealous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 DaleSW, unfortunately, I do think lips are a learning curve that only begins to level out with experience. There are a few general principles but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of shaping and fitting a lip to a particular crankbait there will usually be surprises. I've never tried to be scientific about lips as Dave has. I don't have the engineering background. And my own experience suggests that you can only judge a crankbait's performance as a holistic thing with the body, ballast, and lip considered together. Tiny changes can have outsize effects. I usually follow the same route as Mark. I try to make a close copy a popular commercial crankbait that I like: shape, size, weight, lip angle, ballast placement, etc. That gives me a performance baseline from which I can begin to modify and tweak the design to get what I want to see in the bait. Sometimes good results are immediate. Sometimes It takes a long time and many design iterations. It took me years of fishing and hundreds of crankbaits to have the fish educate me on what a good crankbait looks and feels like when it is retrieved through the water. It can be a frustrating hobby but also gratifying when you get it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 BobP - I tried so hard to find a scientific approach, a spreadsheet solution. But the variables are complex and cannot be reduced to such simple numbers. The best you can do, is understand the effect of any change that you make. I try to predict the result and then perform the change and whether I was right or wrong, I learn a little bit. One change at a time is the most important rule, if you are actually going to learn anything. If you tweak three variables, you may get a result, but you will never know why, what worked what didn't, what made no difference. My guess is that I do the same stuff as everyone else, I just consider each adjustment in a logical fashion. I still get stumped. I am stumped right now, as my bluegill paddletail does not paddle. I have ideas for why, but I get my disappointments the same as everyone else. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted December 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I appreciate your responses. The lip is just going to be a learning curve for me and that's ok. Not wanting change the subject, but I have noticed something. I have noticed while watching videos on lip location and styles from this group. The best action comes when the tow eye is at or below the X axis on lipped baits. It can be under the nose or out on the lip. But approximately in line with the weighting. The hydrodynamic movement puts pressure on the top and sides of the bait, which keeps the bait in a line and of course creates movement. I have created more questions. Oh well, I will start looking for the answers that work for me. Thanks Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) Dale... Heres a good read.. I believe it was posted shortly before you joined... Maybe you'll find it as interesting as i did http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/topic/30036-moment-of-inertia/page-3 Theres a couple of relevant science videos toward the end, one being about a pendulum, which changed the way i look at crank baits..... Basically, they are tiny pendulums..... As you say, moving the tow point closer to the cg, you are in essence shortening the swing arm of the pendulum Edited December 4, 2015 by JRammit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 Well, i posted the link to the last page...... Heres the beginning http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/topic/30036-moment-of-inertia/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted December 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2015 Wow..... I will let that digest for awhile. I'm glade I couldn't comment on that one. I would have put my proverbial foot in my mouth about "some" engineers that I most deal with. That is a whole different topic, that has nothing to do with baits. I'm trying to fit what was said to what is needed for a bait to stay in place or at rest. Inertia is by definition, "a tendency to do nothing or to remain unchanged". We want movement which is energy, which involves weight balance with many other factors in play. We are looking for mechanical kinetic energy that is controlled in a way that creates the action, depth of run etc. I may be premature in my response to this and need more time to think about it. But you have me thinking which others say is scary. Thanks Dale 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
