fishon-son Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 any mold makers running a tormach cnc mill? check them out tormach.com cheap home owners cnc mill 15 to 21 k financing to.....great to get your started made 100% usa just throwing this out there my buddy has modal 1100 and runs a small company out of his garage...great for the hobbiest... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 bob,what do you mean by low acceleration.? my friends machine moves right along cutting all types of aluminum parts ..was at his place a few weeks back watching him ..Its no Mazak or has but dose a really good job and 10k rpm works just fine..hell he will do 35 k this year in work...making extra gun parts for the shop he works at.. ar stuff....he said it would do just find for doing small molds just sayin......tormach.com if anyone want to look..i guess if your looking for a small mill to do big work don't buy this ,,but I will say it moves well....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 What's funny about this post is having a machine does not make you a mold maker. They will cut a mold but who's going to program it? That's the real challenge. Sure you could run simple programs but even those have limits if you can't draw it and produce code for the machine to use. Then there's the cad cam program, the good well known ones are pricey and not easy to just start drawing. My point is it sounds like a good idea but it's way more complicated to actually do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 Desire and lots of spare time, I would say are the essential ingredients, because with these two, you can learn everything else. You need a CAD software, to get your model into the computer. CAM software to convert the CAD data into a language that the m/c can read. Although the CAD to CAM is largely automatic, it does not give perfect results and even makes grinding mistakes. You have to understand the code and be able to interpret and find the errors and even make improvements. It is almost a certainty that you will crash the machine at some point or even several. Parts will break and have to be replaced, so you will have to get familiar with the intimate workings of your machine. You will become so familiar that you will end up making modifications and eventually building your own machine from bits of others. You cannot decide not to do the CNC machine thing because you do not have the requisite knowledge. No one has unless they work in that industry. But, with the desire and the time, you will get there. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 i guess what i see my friend doing made me though it could be a good investment if someone was wanting to start doing there own molds....frank m&gcoding a program isn't that hard...I have 30 yrs in the trade and on a scale of 1-10 its about a 3 1/2 to 4.....I have trained many kids right out of high school to teach them a great job...funny about the cad programming we still edit the crap out of it at the machine and only really use cad/cam on the more harder jobs.....I have not seen a mold yet that I could not g code out...its just time on the machine....with a lot of cheaper programs out now you can get a- m . g. code machine running a conversational program for under $400 bucks we have that two for the newer guys and that is really easy for them to understand....well next year I'm sure ill get some time to play on my buddy machine just to see for myself...as long as we get a break in the shootings out in our land....it seam every time some thing happens AR sales go up and make him work more.. it was just a thought....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 But, but, but...isn't there an app for this yet? I mean, there is for everything else. Hahaha Seriously, I'm sure there is some kind of a scanning program that converts whatever 3D object you scan into language to program your machine. I'm also sure it's expensive, or else everyone would be able to make their own molds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowFISH Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 I'd love to have a Tormach - but spending that much for a "hobby" just doesn't cut it with the wife!! For a hobbist - a Taig can work pretty well... before I had one - I also used a Sherline and Max NC machine (both are not as rigid/fast/good as the Taig). I've had my little taig for a few years now and it's a good little machine once you understand and it teaches you it's limits!!!! I tend to use materials that are easier to cut and forgiving of bad programming (RENShape) for my molds. I've found even after years of playing around - I don't have enough machining experience to just know how far I can push a small endmill through aluminum (And I mean 1/16" diameter small).... with the REN - as long as you don't hit it at full speed at some ridiculous depth the material is forgiving enough for a slight mistake on depth or stepover..... seems like with Aluminum you pay instantly for mistakes with snapped endmills. For those interested in the REN - I use the 5169 material and it's price is pretty much comparable to a like piece of aluminum. It's fairly rigid and much more forgiving than aluminum - so I don't eat endmills and time with mistakes (as much!!). While is seems like a dream - there are drawbacks, as it insulates the plastisol (similar to plaster) so bait production is slower, you need to lube the molds with a little PAM/WD-40/etc after 8-10 shots to avoid any sticking and if you try to cheap out and use the bear minimum of material (ie big thick bait / thin piece of material) the excess heat can cause the material to temporarily warp and force you to use a few clamps to keep the mold shut nice and tight. So don't be cheap - it will cost you in the end - I know!!!! LOL!! One benefit is you can glue pieces together (even with epoxy) so I have a few frankenstien molds that I've built with it combining a body/tail from molds I built. For a pure hobbist that interested in machining their own molds - a good PC , a Taig and some Ren 6169 can go a long long way. There are a ton of CAD apps out there to do basic stuff (and not so basic stuff) - and a few CAM packages that are reasonable in cost for a hobbist. I'm a longtime Pro-E guy - so I come from the design side and Im attempting to learn the machining part. I'm finding CAM is much more of a art than a science as you just can't take someones Mill size/feedrate/depth and just go... that info helps narrow your field at best. On the CAM app side - I've been using Deskproto - which is pretty simple to learn and is fairly comprehensive for a hobbist's needs provided you understand or read up on basic machining principles first. J. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 if you know your math triangles..theres nothing you cant do....I will say I have made some pretty trick stuff over the years and just thought id throw this out there for someone to look at...coding g&m isn't that hard but learning your math is...know those triangles and how to cut arc's and radius is where its and in molds...that's the hard part...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted December 11, 2015 Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 Well for someone who has done this type of work for 30 years it is easy. Writing a code for a 3D model is another story. Writing code for 2d is doable for some. Before some one was to buy a machine to make molds really look into what it really takes to make a mold. There are many programs out there for many price ranges but you get what you pay for. Using these programs have some quirks and understanding what is going on is key and at least for me that is the challenge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 11, 2015 Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 Funny how easy it is to do stuff when you actually know what you're doing. You need a basic skill set to do anything, and enough brains to understand what you're doing. My brother-in-law is an aerospace engineer, a computer expert, and a smart guy. But he called me when someone kicked in his back door, and he needed it repaired/replaced. He had an 1 3/8" thick door, so i bought him a 1 3/4" door, routed out the rabbeted jam so it would accept an 1 3/4" door, hung and locked the new door, installed an aluminum threshold and drip cap, and was done in a day. He had watched me periodically while I worked, and was amazed at how I knew how to do all that stuff. I told him I know it because that's what I do for a living, just like he knows the stuff he knows for designing spaceships for a living. I'm pretty sure he could learn to do what I do, but I'd be really challenged to learn what he does. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 11, 2015 Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 Even modelling on CAD, to produce those surfaces is often no walk in the park. Even with 30+ years experience on CAD engineering, I had to learn new tricks and techniques to get the surfaces that I wanted. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 lets not make it sound that bad...really it all speeds and feeds...bob theres lots of programs out there to program your m&g codes with conversational software....with mazatrol on a mazak mill is all conversational programing now you can eia.or g code it but mazatrol dose all that for you....thats why mazaks cost so much for the eazy programing...hell they have 7axis milling mazatrol all conversational..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I still want to see somebody program a polymorphic 3D surface to match somebody's rough hand drawn sketches with conversational programming. Not saying it can't be done. Just saying I might have to bring a few meals and a sleeping bag because it just might take a while. I love it when you talk dirty! How did that get past the moderators? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 lets not make it sound that bad...really it all speeds and feeds...bob theres lots of programs out there to program your m&g codes with conversational software....with mazatrol on a mazak mill is all conversational programing now you can eia.or g code it but mazatrol dose all that for you....thats why mazaks cost so much for the eazy programing...hell they have 7axis milling mazatrol all conversational..... Fishon-son, The older we get, the harder it is to learn new programs. My eldest son took computer programming in college, and learned Basic. I couldn't. Today's computers and programs are light years ahead of what we had when computers first became "commmon", and I still can't learn most of the programs. My youngest, a 20 year old daughter, has computers so far embedded in her operating system that she is instinctive, where as her older sister (late 20's) and one of her brothers (30), both college graduates with advanced degrees and successful careers, and both computer literate, are left in the dust by her skills. Try and keep that in mind when you say it should be simple. It may be for you, but, for some of us, it is a struggle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I used to love programming and was able to write software for every computer that I worked on, from my Casio programmable calculator, Psion organiser, DOS command procedures, GRAPL (design) and more. But then I made a bad decision, as I did not have time to do electronics, hardware and software, I chose electronics. By the time I realized my mistake, software had moved on so far, that a computer course would have been necessary just to catch up. A course was out of the question, as I was working and had a family to support. That was my second mistake, I should have made the commitment and made the jump. Computer programming was what I enjoyed, but mid-career moves when you have a family were just not allowed or even contemplated. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I certainly would not be afraid to tackle G-code with my background. The more basic the language, the better. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I certainly would not write whole scripts, but rely on my CAD software to generate the script. More software to emulate the run, to check for errors and clashes. Just enough editing to fix any obvious errors. This is all hypothetical, as I have no plans to get involved with NC machining. Having said that, I still have a new type of NC machine for duplicating compound shaped bodies. The target is 10 seconds per inch of body, so a 6" body will take 60 seconds. This is way faster than any duplicator machine can manage. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Thirty hours to run one side of a mold wow I bet you made a bundle on that mold Bob. People read this carefully if you are thinking of doing this. 3D design and programming is no easy task. And for the price point of a tormach you don't get many bells and whistles. With a lot of new cnc machinist time is precious cause you won't have much left over for things like sleep!! Eating can be done as long as you like the smell of coolant. Not to mention the sound of a machine running all day long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Bob and Frank, I think I'll stick to something easier, like parenting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 So it sounds like you need to program for the machine you have to optimize time spent. Some guys will not do that and end up being mad the machine won't do what they want. That 440 is not much cheaper than the others and most of the add one are the same price or a little more. Weight of the machines is where there is a big difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 wow wtf did i start........i thinking bob you dont want anymore competition....lol your making it out to be way over the top....if your cutting molds for someone else with a plaistic injection machine i guess you will have alot of time in a mold...im talking a small 1 -2 place 4 max for the hobbist like most on here...my thought was to see if anyone was doing what i thought would be fun to do...maybe make i few bucks helping others out...not getting into cad/cam software and looking for a big payday....just to have some fun with..that was it...your making it out to be as if you need all the big dollar crap like a full machine shop would have......lets SLOW IT DOWN .......for basic molds you don't need anything but the basic package I was thinking of getting the 1100 model from tormach...with there software package.....I felt I could cut worm,craw,grubs and any basic mold with that package and maybe cut a few for others ..not open a full on machine shop..just do it in the garage..when I get it i'll post a few things with pics of what I can do with it...maybe a video to.....if I can figture out how to post them.........lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryanmc Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Maybe this should be debated on a machinists forum. Folks here are more concerned with the glue to water ratio to seal a pop mold... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 I lost interest a while back, but thats just me.... I still think its a good discussion here How many guys think its easier.. Or dare i say "a short cut" to buy one of these machines, press a few buttons and boom!... Make a mold!........... Surely less effort than carving a master and pouring plaster over it right?? Na.... Respect to the machine guys! I took a drafting class in high school (drafting... Not CAD) thinking i would like it, because i LOVE everything about design!........ Found out quick this does not fit my attention span!..... All i remember doing was taking blue prints and shrinking/enlarging them to scale....... SO MANY TEDIOUS MEASUREMENTS!!!... I couldnt hack it, so it became a "blow off class"....... Im sure computers make it quicker, but i doubt any easier Anyone who can read through this entire thread might make it in the CAD/CNC world..... But if you skipped one word, stick to plaster 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Well I for one am loving this thread, and definitely think it has a place on TU. The numbers of members that will ever get involved in this sport is very small, but the numbers of members who buy ally molds and commission molds is very high. I think it is important for at least the mold users to have an understanding of what goes into their precious possessions. JR - funny you mentioned the disillusionment of the design office. All those years in school, learning trigonometry and how to use compasses and all the rest. Design offices (pencils and drawing boards) do NOT use compasses, they use circle templates. Most of the job is tracing stuff that has been drawn before, from blueprints and photocopies. Occasionally you got to draw something new and original, but definitely not the norm. This is why CAD was so powerful, it allowed you to copy with total accuracy and no degradation. However, the introduction of CAD was slow, as existing and current projects were all manual. Only when an entirely new project was started, could a CAD commitment be made, and even then, there were enough old soldiers that made sure that the projects were never 100%. Me being in there for the birth of CAD and totally keen, was a very frustrating time. I basically had to sell the idea to the senior management. DAve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Well said DAve there is a place here for this discussion. Now when you plunk down your hard earned money for a custom mold at least you will know he is not JUST pushing a button and collecting money. I have been working on learning cad/cam for the past two years and have learned a lot from some real heavy hitters in the industry. The work involved in this to be GOOD is tremendous. 3D guys are a rare breed and if you are real good at it you won't make molds for plastic you will be making molds for everything else you see around you. If you are thinking about this and really want to know some of what is being talked about here, a lot of the cadcam company's will let you try them for free. If you are good at 3D drawing and programming you might want to give it a try. All the ones I have used have a simulation mode so you can see what you have after the machining simulation is done. One other thing you will find out is how good your computers graphics card is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
