mark poulson Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 My father had a moto..."If it won't fit, get a bigger hammer". Maybe that's why I never really mastered computers. I kept breaking them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveMc1 Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 3D guys are a rare breed and if you are real good at it you won't make molds for plastic you will be making molds for everything else you see around you. Exactly, Collect a grand for a custom mold, $6K-$10K for a production mold, or build a mold for the bumper of the next luxury car and collect a $250,000+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Frank - good words of wisdom. A note on graphics cards though; I am currently working from home, designing an entire electric vehicle, and doing the work on the cheapest little laptop that I could find, as I was skint at the time. The laptop cost me $215 and it does just fine, until I try to load up half the vehicle, then it slows down and stops. But as far as mold and lure design, it works extremely well, and this is using one of the CAD industry giant software packages, CATIA V5. I will add that this software is available FREE to you all UNOFFICIALLY of course. The unofficial copies of Catia V5 are actually distributed by Dassault (Catia), the thinking being that the more people who can use their software, the more the software will be adopted. So you can safely download a pirate copy, no one is coming after you. If you want to go legitimate and buy Catia V5, well you cannot. You have to rent it, and it will set you back something like $20,000 per year per seat. If you do decide to try Catia, there are plenty of training materials also available on the web. Use the torrent system to download Catia and training documents. It may be time for a thread on CAD techniques, as there are quite a few members modelling on CAD. DAve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) Mine used to bog down when in the simulation mode. Not with the drawing. My new one was not cheap but it was not the best for the job either. Good thing all of my boys are computer savvy cause I would be in trouble. Electric car now that's funny I just went on a tour at the Tesla factory. One of my teachers got me in on a special tour. Pretty bad a$$ to see all the machines working to make a truly different car. Sorry to get off subject. Edited December 13, 2015 by Frank 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Frank - yes, very impressive engineering. Mine isn't exactly a Tesla, it is a 3-wheeled TukTuk. The entire team comprises of 4 players; boss, chief engineer, stylist and me, the designer. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 how did we get from a little question to a full blown machine shop....? reminds me of some kids that start there first job in a shop run a few parts and want $25 a hr.to do it after 3 months...you dont need any cad software you dont need big dollar tools and dont need a big machine shop to make good molds... hell we are using bondo to make molds so everything else is a step up...that was my thought..but some how we needed cad/cam software and 10 yrs of collage to turn any machine on to try and make a mold.....but only need a can of bondo a box to copy the same......?????...lets move on...hopfully this spring ill post a video showing what can be done at home for the small price of a car payment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Fishon-son - I am not really sure what you were expecting or wanted from this thread or what you want us to move on too. Just to recap; you started a discussion on the Tormach that your friend uses. The discussion was inevitably going to move to other machines in the price range and their advantages and disadvantages. This is valid input to the discussion, after all we cannot just promote the Tormach. We then have to forewarn anyone getting enthusiastic and diving in, about the commitment required for hobby CNC. Next comes the options of CAD or no CAD, G-code and all the other options for generating the model. There is a wealth of experience in the membership, and each has something valuable and informative to offer to the knowledge base. This thread has progressed much further than these types of threads usually do and that makes it a quality thread, useful for anyone looking for information or general discussion on the subject. Yes indeed, it is possible to achieve a mold without CAD and I look forward to viewing your progress and videos in the spring. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Now im confused (again) For anyone like me reading... How does the machine know what to do with out a program to follow??... If you dont use CAD, then what do you use?... Paintbrush?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Can someone machine bondo, or some other softer material, with the same machines used to make aluminum molds? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Now im confused (again) For anyone like me reading... How does the machine know what to do with out a program to follow??... If you dont use CAD, then what do you use?... Paintbrush?? most cnc mills and lathes come with software and a format to follow to achieve your program..the format would be you writing a coded program in m&g codes using your print and writing in your sizes ..you start with a zero point and work your lenths form the center line.in basic just like making a drawing.but you use the tip of the cutting tool as your pencil.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 I've seen the gantry routers that were computer controlled at wood working shows. They are pretty amazing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 That sounds like a fun project. I hope you have the time to complete it, and post the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Mark - while I was writing my last post, I too was thinking about Bondo filler as a machinable material. I know it is a pleasure to work with when drilling and shaping. I was thinking that at least for testing designs, it would work pretty good on a CNC machine. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt k Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) it's very much a machinable material and it's very stable to work with . Time and moisture does change things since it is vulnerable to absorbing moisture but its great for testing purposes (aside from the mess). A lot of people use machinable wax for learning cnc , prototyping etc , and another material which gets used and is pretty much a block of bondo . I've only used it once throughout my career and it was roughly a 20x20 inch square block . It was small compared to a lot of the stuff that we typically ran but It extremely necessary because the material cost of the one off part was 15k and highly certified which could take months to replace . For the most part most standard materials are usually cheap enough to risk scrapping a part . Edited December 13, 2015 by curt k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 I reckon perspex would machine nice too, but maybe a bit expensive. There would be lessons to be learned from clear molds, especially high cavity counts and appendages. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majic man Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 The aluminum is not really the expensive part. Its the hours that get the price up there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt k Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) I reckon perspex would machine nice too, but maybe a bit expensive. There would be lessons to be learned from clear molds, especially high cavity counts and appendages. Dave Plastics can be pretty nasty when using small cutters ,it can melt to the cutter quite easily and break the tool or stick in little globs to the part being made . The right choice in tools and a heavy coolant concentrate is a must . Edited December 13, 2015 by curt k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 Will sealing the bondo mold cavity with runny super glue, like I do with bondo lure repairs, make it more stable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt k Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 (edited) sealing it should be good for preventing moisture and make it less sticky for pouring . What I meant by stable is that it doesn't tend to warp out of shape or suffer from stress relief . It's more of a machining thing than anything . The part that I made for example was a high tolerance titanium clevis which had so much material hogged out of it that it needed a lot of machine operations due to stress relief while machining and re-clamping . The prototype block followed the same procedures but it held its shape extremely well Edited December 13, 2015 by curt k 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 they use wax for making investment castings....it very easy to machine ..its a mold process all by itself you start by machining your part or parts in a series then coat it with plaster after it hardens and drys you melt the wax out..then cast your parts with what ever mat'l your casting with...I would think the new do-it line of molds are investment casting...essential line...it leaves almost a perfict finish but with very small pits that I think are making a dul bait..i don't know the whole process but have made a few parts in wax year ago to be casted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 bob i would think the block is all casted...you have to think in reverse so if you had a senco mold you would take a block of wax lets say one side and machine the1/2 worm into it then coat it with plaster dry it then pour your molting mat'l into it....that would be the first half the wax will burn out or you can cook it out with a oven what you have left would be a casting of plaster..knock off the plaster after you pour in your mat'l and theres your 1st half of your mold....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 Absofreakinglutely. The aluminum is the cheap part. Cost of materials is always a fraction of the cost of labor. Time is money. That was true when I bid work as a general contractor, and it's really true for anything. Your time is valuable. You only have one lifetime (with apologies to Shirley MacLaine). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 Hahaha I took a lot of crap from my rich clients, but I never gave it back to my employees or subs. I had guys who worked for me for more that twenty years who are still my friends. And almost all of my clients are still friends, too. The very first client I ever had as a general contractor told me, "Good work makes good friends", and I took that to heart. Plus, doing a good job for a fair price feels good. I made a good living for 35 years from referrals. I gave good house. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowFISH Posted December 14, 2015 Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 The materials are by far the cheapest part.... even as a hobbist - the amount of time you'll put in to get a mold/design just right is insane... I'm getting better but also live with things that if I were selling I'd probably have to deal with (sinks/excess flash, etc.). It's just like pouring - the materials are cheap - but factor in your time nad you realize instantly that it's an extremely tough business proposition.... I have a couple designs that if I said I had 200-300 hours into them that's probably a light estimate... that time includes Initial design, CADing it up, CAM time, CNC cutting - then making revisions to fix it and back through that process all over again.... sometimes more than once or twice.... even at a near minimum wage I'd be at 3-5K for that design not counting consumables (mills, materials) and overhead (Cost of a machine, electricity, etc). Luckily I'm a hobbist and I actually enjoy the process - as a buisness I'd be sunk in the first week. Like anything else - over time technology will speed this stuff up..... it's still way too clostly - but you can rapid protoype (3D print) in metals... from what I've seen it's a little rough (finish has a texture) - but I'd bet in 3-4 years it will be cheap enough that you could start to cut down on the CAM/CNC time - but the design/CAD is never going anywhere - neither is the trail and error to get things right. Bob - would love to understand more of your hobbist mill feedback. My little taig is great - but I'd love to upgrade at some point to something a bit more rigid and larger. I had looked at the Tormachs and thought they were pretty sweet - I keep an eye out for used ones in my area. Of the other mills in that general price range - what are your thoughts? I tend to run my little taig at 6-8 IPM on items with alot of detail and heavily contoured shapes as I found it will miss steps when I try to run it too fast. I've learned with my machine slow and steady wins the race. The speed isn't that critical to me being a hobbist - but I'd love to be able to run faster if I ever do upgrade. J. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2015 if you find a used tormach slowfish..you'll fine that it will dojust fine cutting any and all molds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
