Tormach Cnc Mill

[Vodkaman]

I too have come across tech-hoarders who refuse to share their knowledge. There was one guy who was paid a huge bonus to train two of us, but we could tell that he was holding back and only delivering the minimum - he was fired and we trained ourselves. My experience is that these people are in the minority, most are happy to share.

 

I have trained a LOT of engineers and set them off on lucrative careers. I have even worked FOR a couple of my guys on future projects, in fact the project that I am working on right now, is owned by an ex-apprentice of mine. I got it all wrong along the line, he is a multi-millionaire and I'm skint

 

Dave

[fishon-son]

Funny you mention that there is shops that don't want to let you learn a new skill. I was invited to a meeting for my local college machining tech Dept. We were talking over some things that the machining industry might want to see come from the college. One of the last statements was about weather some people don't want to teach others the way they do there job. It was pretty much unanimous that it does happen more than they want it to but change is on the horizon. If they want to let you learn then take them up on all they will help you with. Just remember even with these programs there is many many ways to get a job done. Some are faster and some give a better finish. You will need to learn things the way your mind works. We are not all the same and don't learn the same. After a year of using mastercam I still don't draw or program like most of the other guys in my class. But I get what I want.

 

frank, I feel its 99% the people you work within those shops...I don't feel its the owners it the guys working for them...insecurities on there part..thats one reason I push the math skills on every new guy I train..i really feel that strong math skills will make you better then most machinist out there....and when your working for someone else that's a win win for you.....

[Vodkaman]

I am shocked that so many in your industry are so unhelpful!

 

Dave

[Travis]

I am shocked that so many in your industry are so unhelpful!

 

Dave

 

It really is this way in many industries.  The problem is most individuals don't continue to learn.  They get a, lets just pick a year for an example, 1985 skill set and enter the workforce.  They are able to the job at that time based on the skill set.  Technology of course keeps marching and in some cases running along.  They continue to do the same job/skill set and are proficient at it but if the business is successful the technology they use changes.  These guys are unwilling or incapable of learning the new skill set in a timely fashion and are overlooked compared to the modern day counter parts.  What does one do when the writing is on the wall?  The individual either diversifies your skill set (cheaper for employers often to higher new than mess with older worker with typically increased benefits) or they hang on for as long as they can.  Many hang on so they clam up and do the bare minimum to bring their future replacement up to speed.  They don't need these guys proficient in the old ways (cheaper to find a third party to clean the mess up when really needing the proficiency) just need the things the old guy learned from experience, etc....  Eventually they will be cut and land a job with a company that needs their skills but that usually is telling in its self.  What does it mean when a person goes to work for a company using 1985 technology?  They either aren't growing, don't have the capital to invest in current technology, likely no longer competitive.  Best case is they are niche market and large enough to weathered the storm and barriers are too high for others to enter based on the limited return but that only lasts so long as eventually even for niche markets frequently fall to other countries can simply do it much cheaper.

Edited December 26, 2015 by Travis

[mark poulson]

I had my own construction company for 35 years, and worked for others for 15 years before that.

I ran into both kinds of people, the ones who shared and the ones who didn't.

When working for others, come layoff time, the ones who shared were the last ones laid off.

When I started my own company, I knew anything skills and knowledge I had were because I was taught by someone else.

So I shared as much as I could, because better carpenters do better work.

No one gets anywhere in life without help.  Recognizing that, and acknowledging it, is the mark of an adult.

"Life is too short to be chickenshit".

[fishon-son]

i worked for one guy who had a 25 man shop . and kept all machines currant meaning he kept up with technology..cnc mills and lathes were on a rotation..worked for him for 15 yrs..seen 8 mills and 4 cnc lathes replaced..all were bought brand new...mazak lathes and haas mills...he made millions  gave out great bonus checks ...but as he got older and made more money he forgot where he came from and who was making the money for him..all his best guys left.....and the help wanted sign dosent come down...I guess he rototed his work force to.......

[Vodkaman]

I am sixty next birthday and I still crave the technology. I am searching for new ways to use the tech to do my job better, be it my day job of automotive design or my main job as a lure designer.

 

42 years in the industry, I have seen many major changes in the technology. I have even left a couple of companies that refused to move with the tech, I knew that if I stayed that I would be left behind when job hunting season started again.

 

I have gone from pencils to Anvil 4000 (aerospace CAD), Catia V3 to V4 to V5, each of these changes was a total re-learn from scratch. I have V6 downloaded and I am ready to jump in if industry decides to make the change.

 

It seems that contract designers are of a different mentality to staff employees. We are a community, like TU. We work hard and party hard, together. If a contractor joins the project, stepping from a lower tech to a newer tech, he will ask for help. We will gather around and feed him the information to bring him rapidly up to speed. If necessary, we will even share his workload while he learns, but this will cost him heavily on Friday night. This is not BS, I have been helped a couple of times when I needed it, but I have helped so many more.

 

With a proper mental attitude, there is no need to get left behind or be afraid of technology. Get stuck in and embrace the tech. Everyone is in the same boat - LEARN or BURN.

 

Dave

[fishon-son]

I'm not going to start a labor vs management argument. I just want to remind you that when times get tough, as they have in machining, labor always expects management to take all the hits. They never remember the generosity when times were good. As to my premise about hard times in machining. There are fewer jobs in mfging and machining today in the US than there have been for many generations. Fewer jobs means more competition and lower prices. Last year's dollars have been spent. Today's dollars have to pay today's bills.

bob , management should take the hits,,,there pulling in all the money from the labors work...99% of the time management cant do the work that's way theres labors......no I'm not union......

[Vodkaman]

I was staunch union up until I left my permanent job and went design contracting. When the union rep at the contract office came to me for my dues, I raised a small problem. He told me that i was a contractor and so nothing could be done, so I put the money back in my pocket. I am still staunch union, but only if they are going to work for me. But, as a contractor, I have to negotiate my own salary and working conditions.

 

If you are working in a shop that has a union that is fighting for your pay and conditions, then shame on you for not paying into the support of that union. I will refrain from writing anything stronger.

 

I don't see how a small machine shop with say 20 machinists, can be anything other than a contract environment as the management cannot take the hit for 20 employees when the work runs low. The boss will likely carry 3 permanent staff machinists and a secretary through the hard times, but the rest will be on a demand and supply basis.

 

In a small design house or a small machine shop, actual union presence doesn't work, but union principles still apply. I am my own union, if I do not receive the correct pay and conditions, then I withdraw my labor, I have done this several times.

 

Dave

[mark poulson]

If you don't enjoy what you do at work, where you spend the majority of your waking adult life, you've missed the boat, and I could never enjoy having a company where people were worried about making their rent, or feeding their family.  If you can't afford to pay people fairly, you shouldn't be in business.

As a high end residential contractor I always knew I had no product without good workmen, and I paid them accordingly.  The better their work, the better my company looked, and I survived on referrals for 35 years.

We worked in rich people's homes, and I had to trust my employees. 

The flip side is everyone knew who was signing the checks, so I never had to lean on anyone.

I have ex employees who are still my friends, because of mutual respect and trust.

[mark poulson]

Bob,

I understand where you're coming from.  When my Workman's Comp. deposit one year was more that I made, I decided to scale back to four carpenters, and sub out everything else.  Only four dramas a day was a huge relief!

 

Unions only arose because of abuse by employers.  You can look it up.  There is no question that, as they became more successful, and more bureaucratic, they also became self-serving.  Money does that.

My uncle Issac Asimov was the head of a Teamster's local in Detroit after WW2.  When he'd come to town, he would check my hands for calluses, as if that meant I was worthy.  In the meantime, he drove a Continental, so "he would arrive at the negotiations with the bosses as an equal", always had a big roll of bills in his pocket, and had hands as soft as a baby's butt.  He was corrupted by money.

But he took great pride in saying he was the only Teamster's local head in Detroit who wasn't under Jimmy Hoffa's thumb, and that part was true.

And he did look out for his members, so he could keep his job.

 

When I went to high school, my current American history teacher was a WW2 vet who taught us that there was a social contract between Government, Labor, and Business, an implicit agreement to all pull on the same end of the rope for the betterment of our whole country.

Somehow, as that generation's kids grew up, they forgot that, and the Government, instead of being part of the solution, became an anti-people force, dumbing down our schools, and exporting our jobs.

It went from Kennedy's "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can to for your country" to Nixon's "Ask what you can do for youself", and then to Reagan's, "We have to understand that we are becoming a service economy", which meant rich people and their servants.  

Look at our economy today.  Since 1980, the top 1% of our population has gone from owning a large portion of our wealth to owning almost all of it.

It's no wonder people are scrambling to make it to make it today, while our country is still the richest in the world.  The wealthy have carved off so much meat that the rest of us are chewing on a lean bone.

Check out these statistics:

http://www.cbpp.org/research/poverty-and-inequality/a-guide-to-statistics-on-historical-trends-in-income-inequality

Edited December 29, 2015 by mark poulson

[Vodkaman]

Great post Mark. So true, and it is not just USA, the same in the UK too.

 

Unions are not about the small shops. Generally the small shops are owned and run by jobbers who got sick of lining the bosses pockets with his graft. They understand about shop safety and what the workers need to keep them happy. Unions are all about the large corporations who have no empathy with the workforce, and all they want to do is satisfy the shareholders.

 

If management treated the workforce right and fairly, there would be no need for unions. As for corruption - it knows no bounds.

 

Dave

[fishon-son]

hey, heres what i think.........we are way off subject..!!!!!.....i emailed tormach and have been doing so for a while...about there machines..they are starting a new blog on the 440 with 10,000 rpm spindle...should be insteresting...

[Vodkaman]

We are not way off subject at all. We dealt with the Tormach 8 pages ago, now we are skirting the subject with related discussions. If you bring something interesting up on the Tormach that we have missed, then we will get right back to it.

 

Dave

[fishon-son]

bob cad .starting monday tuesday....been looking it over seams to be ok...we'll see......

[RSullivan]

fishon-son. You should look at Fusion360

 

1.) I am a hobbyist and have no intention on making baits for money.

2.) I understand how CAD programs work (OPENGl, DirectX,..), NOT how to use them.

3.) I understand what CAM software does, NOT how to use it.

4.) I understand G-Code (The output every one is looking for from their CAM software).

5.) I am not a CNC guy! Though again, I do understand the relationship between CAD, CAM, G-Code and the CNC Controller / Machine.

6.) I am not artistic. This is very bad for attempting CAD.

7.) I have really enjoyed this thread!

 

I am stating all of this as to not start any arguments on this thread.

I am not championing any CAD/CAM software package over another.

 

My plan as a hobbyist to attempt to make my own aluminum injection mold is as such:

1.) Create my mold in Fusion360.

2.) Get some stock from Alro metals.

3.) Join Maker Works (http://maker-works.com) in Ann Arbor Michigan (close to me).

    They have a Tormach PCNC 1100.

 

So it seems to me that Fusion360 has everything one needs to CAD and CAM a mold.

1.) Pretty good design.

2.) Tool libraries.

3.) Generates tool paths (G-Code).

4.) Windows and IOS (I use Windows so I Am not all that familiar with the ISO version).

5.) This is a hybrid cloud based application

6.) It is free for hobbyist and small businesses.

7.) You can import a whole lot of files (Catia,DFX,IGES,STEP,STL and a lot more).

 

The learning curve is horrendous (like it is with any CAD/CAM package) for someone 

like me whom has never done anything with CAD/CAM and am artistically deficient.

 

Since it is cloud based then people can share their work. Hopefully someone will 

think this is a good idea and help me turn my cigar shaped single cavity mold

into a really cool 16 cavity swim bait mold

[Vodkaman]

RS - I really liked your post

 

Sounds like a solid plan. I know nothing about Fusion360, but looking through the Google images for Fusion360, it does seem to have good shaping capability. To master shaping is always difficult, so stick with it and join a Fusion360 forum for help.

 

Dave

[fishon-son]

RS-  a guy at my shop was telling me abot this place . but couldnt remember the name, im just 10 miles away so im going to have to take alook..im thinking you will need to get in line to get on the machines.....thanks so much for the help...it will deffinitly make my mind up if the tomach is for me....i have a great fish catching bait that we tested on a river fishing walleye last spring and boy did it produce..i gave a few away to the guys around us and they started catching alot more ...the bait was the talk of the river where we were at..about 10 guys got baits and all had there limits when we left....not to say my bait did it but the local bait shop wants to stock them....i just cant trust the other makers to have a mold done and my shop has grown out of the 3 building for me to make it there....i just made my 1 time mold on a bridgeport...so i know if i had a better machine i could clean it up..the mold was made at another shop I worked at...this job is 5 mins from my front door so I don't want to just slip it in and get my boss pissed.....we talked about it and I was told if we slow down he didn't care..but he also ask that I not slip it in..great shop and great people there so I can respect that.....

[Kent I]

I don't know who mentioned Fusion 360, but thanks to whoever it was. I downloaded and installed it yesterday and had pretty low expectations, but find the CAD part to be excellent...powerful, intuitive and uncomplicated. Haven't tried lofting yet, but the "shape" function seems well suited to plug design, and there is an assembly mode so you can place wires, hooks, weights and so on. I've just hacked around on it for an hour or two, so have just scratched the surface, but so far I'm impressed, and you can't beat the price!

[majic man]

The Fusion looks very good to me, I have played with it. The only scary thing is, if I devote a bunch of time into learning it, And they pull the plug on the price, and stick it to everyone. Being cloud based they always hold the keys to the castle.

[SlowFISH]

Without looking at Fusion 360 - one thing I can say about CAD platforms is the majority of them are based on the same basic principles to create a model.  Meaning if you learn one platform - and have to move to another - you basically just have to understand/learn a new interface.   The ability, knowledge and understanding on how to properly create "a model" is fairly universal.  I started using CAD (Form Z) back in 1994 and then I moved onto Pro-E (since 1997).   Luckily I've worked at places that allowed me to stick to that platform although it's gone under 3 MAJOR revamps that had me relearning completely new interfaces and ways to work (in addition to the year to year updates) I find it's usually 1 week of hair pulling after a major change and then it's like second nature.  Even though I only "know" one CAD platform -  I spend alot of time training younger staff on other CAD platforms they have experience in from school  such as Solidworks/Alias/etc. I can't push the keys for them or show them where stuff is in the menus - but I can sit there and sketch out step by step how to construct a stable and flexible/editable model - and direct them enough so they learn how to do it.  At the core - all these programs are the same.

 

So - point being - I wouldn't worry so much about a particular CAD platform disappearing and not being able to move on - as the understanding you've gained will transfer.... sort of like getting a new car - it might take you awhile to figure out how things work on the GPS, door locks or how the hell the wipers work - but you catch on very quick and are off and running.  The ONLY issue I'd see in the sernario something dries up is that your files may not be useable in a different CAD platform - and this is a VERY common problem and most companies purposely do this to keep you hooked.  I'd recommend saving files you create (in addtiion to the native CAD formats) in IGES/STEP/Parasolid exports if the program allows.  These universal formats will not necessarily be editable in another program - but atleast you'd have them as a guide to rebuild if necessary.

 

  J.

[majic man]

the fusion 360 is cad and cam integrated. 

[RSullivan]

In my earlier post I had said:

'So it seems to me that Fusion360 has everything one needs to CAD and CAM a mold.'

This was my attempt to not be pushy and start a discussion about the best software

strategies for CAD/CAM.

 

Since this forum is basically made up of hobbyist and small business owners

I will refine my statement:

'Fusion260 is the no-brainer option for creating the CAD and CAM output (G-code)

for creating custom soft plastic injection molds if you currently do not own

any CAD or CAM software packages.'.

 

I would not worry about AutoDesk 'pulling' the plug on the 'free' aspect of

the software any time soon. I am pretty familiar with their market strategy. They

are looking for market penetration.

 

It is sort-of like the Apple personal computer strategy that was utilized in the

80's and 90's. though it did not really work out for them it went like this:

1.) Offer Apple computers to colleges for a really good price (Less than a 'PC').

2.) The colleges will sell the Apple computers at the campus book stores to the students.

3.) Since the colleges are getting such a great price on the Apple computers they

    make decent  monies on the mark-up.

4.) Colleges even started 'suggesting' to freshman that they need an Apple computer for

    the course given at the institution.

5.) So students go through 4 years of college (Those that have children know this

    is a complete lie. A child typically takes more than 4 years to acquire a 4

    year degree) using Apple computers.

 

The thought was when the students enter the work force they are familiar with Apple computers.

Employers would eventually get tires or re-training new hires on 'PC's and would think

it cost effective to simply to use Apple computers themselves, thus saving any training

time and so on.

This did not work because no one ever really wrote any business (or industrial for that matter)

grade software for Apple computers.

 

AutoDesk has always some-what dabbled in this channel by offering AutoDesk licenses 'Free'

to students (And mentors of students it you could prove so).

What they are attempting to do is to get Fusion360 (AutoDesk products) more ingrained into

the industrial CAD/CAM environments. They currently do not have much penetration in this space.

 

Fusion360 is a work in progress. I see that core updates accur about once a month. the updates

contain 'bug fixes' but also include a surprising amount of additional functionality.

 

If you already are utilizing some other CAD and CAM software by all means continue

to use it, but if you are new to CAD/CAM, do not currently own any CAD/CAM software

and are thinking of cutting your own molds Fusion360 is a no-brainer.

 

Keep in mind that your 'license' is only good for a year. I am not sure if AutoDesk

is going to 'remind' people that their license is about to expire. I have been told

to track the license expiration myself and make sure to renew it before it expires.

 

My 2-Cents.

[fishon-son]

 

fishon-son. You should look at Fusion360

 

1.) I am a hobbyist and have no intention on making baits for money.

2.) I understand how CAD programs work (OPENGl, DirectX,..), NOT how to use them.

3.) I understand what CAM software does, NOT how to use it.

4.) I understand G-Code (The output every one is looking for from their CAM software).

5.) I am not a CNC guy! Though again, I do understand the relationship between CAD, CAM, G-Code and the CNC Controller / Machine.

6.) I am not artistic. This is very bad for attempting CAD.

7.) I have really enjoyed this thread!

 

I am stating all of this as to not start any arguments on this thread.

I am not championing any CAD/CAM software package over another.

 

My plan as a hobbyist to attempt to make my own aluminum injection mold is as such:

1.) Create my mold in Fusion360.

2.) Get some stock from Alro metals.

3.) Join Maker Works (http://maker-works.com) in Ann Arbor Michigan (close to me).

    They have a Tormach PCNC 1100.

 

So it seems to me that Fusion360 has everything one needs to CAD and CAM a mold.

1.) Pretty good design.

2.) Tool libraries.

3.) Generates tool paths (G-Code).

4.) Windows and IOS (I use Windows so I Am not all that familiar with the ISO version).

5.) This is a hybrid cloud based application

6.) It is free for hobbyist and small businesses.

7.) You can import a whole lot of files (Catia,DFX,IGES,STEP,STL and a lot more).

 

The learning curve is horrendous (like it is with any CAD/CAM package) for someone 

like me whom has never done anything with CAD/CAM and am artistically deficient.

 

Since it is cloud based then people can share their work. Hopefully someone will 

think this is a good idea and help me turn my cigar shaped single cavity mold

into a really cool 16 cavity swim bait mold

 

RS...NOT MY SHOP TO SAY WHAT IS USED..i only work there and I'm being forced into this..I feel its a good thing so really not forced..so for me its bobcad...no choice in that..but its past Tuesday and still hasn't happened...a few worker had to take family leave for a week so maybe Monday I'm told again....our i.t. guy was one that needed time off...

[Vodkaman]

Good post SlowFISH. Yes, CAD skills are transferable. Just looking at a short vid of the Fusion, I see some similarities with Catia V5.

 

The skills are about understanding how one element is used to create another and how all the elements link together (on a decent system) so that if you change one element, the rest follow the change.

 

Each CAD system has a 'style' of construction and it (should) maintains that style throughout the whole package. Once you have the style, it is very easy to learn a function that you have not used before, because it works the same as everything else. If you are forced to learn a NEW CAD system, by the time you have figured out the basic elements of points, lines and planes, you will already be 'seeing' the style.

 

A new CAD package always seems so complicated, and IT IS. BUT, with a basic understanding about CAD, you already know what to look for. If you have never used CAD, then you are in for a tough time.

 

New CAD users - a beginners course is the quickest and easiest way in. You are sure to know someone who knows CAD and could give you a couple of hours introduction. Find an instruction manual download, preferably with exercises that can be followed. Every CAD system has a forum like TU, were you can ask daft questions, it is allowed.

 

Dave