Tormach Cnc Mill

[RSullivan]

fishon_son:

Bobcad is certainly a good package.

I understand that your shop is standardized on Bobcad.

I understand why the ownership does not want any other software CAD/CAM

package used on their machines except for the one they have standadized on.

 

To continue with my thoughts on why Fusion360 is 'free' and how they hope it

will help them achieve more market penetration:

1.) You have a mold that your employer was kind enough to allow you to create in Bobcad.

2.) Your employer also was king enough to allow you to use the machines to cut the mold.

3.) You are very happy.

4.) At some point you want to modify the mold and cut a new one.

5.) You decide that you want to make the modifications at home on your PC so you can

    leisurly work on it rather than asking the owner again if you can use the shops

    PC's and Bobcat off-hours to do this.

6.) You export your mold CAD components from Bobcad (like in a .stl format).

7.) At home you install Fusion360 with your 'free' license for hobbyist and small

    businesses.

8.) Over the winter you make several different revisions of you original mold.

9.) Perhaps you create new molds?

10.) In spring your owner is kind enough to let you utilize his machines again to cut molds.

11.) You export your mold CAD designs from Fusion360 and import them into BobCad at the shop.

12.) You can now cut the molds.

 

This is why Fusion360 has a free license for hobbyist and small businesses. They are hoping

that you will find Fusion360 a better CAD/CAM suite than BobCad. They are hoping that

eventually you will convince the ownership that AutoDesk products (through your usage

of Fusion360) are better products than BobCad. When the next version upgrade of BobCad

occurs of the next support fees cycle your owner may decide to look at switching software

vendors from BobCad to AutoDesk.

 

I am also aware of how supply chains work in heavy industries (especially south-eastern

Michigan automotive). In order to move forward with CAD/CAM in these supply chains the

most important factors are:

1.) CAD/CAM standardization.

2.) Cloud based.

Here is a link to a VERY LONG ua presentation on the CAD/CAM relationship between Ford

and AutoDesk. If anyone is interestes and has the time it is pretty informative when

it comes to AutoDesk strategies relating to industrial supply chains.

http://au.autodesk.com/au-online/classes-on-demand/class-catalog/2012/autocad/247-on-six-continents-one-ford-one-team-one-goal-one-cad-standard#chapter=0

 

I apologize for being long winded here. I am just trying to encourage anyone whom is thinking

of designing their own molds to go ahead and do so! With Fusion360 there is zero costs

involved (out side of time) with making such an attempt.

 

Vodkaman:

I am glad that you are also showing encouragement to anyone reading this thread

that may be considering attempting to learn CAD/CAM for the purpose of mold designs.

 

AutoDesk Fusion360 training Youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/user/AutodeskFusion360

 

fishon_son:

I hope your shop slows down and the owner lets you do your mold work.

I hope you 'bite' on my Fusion360 suggestion and load it onto your home PC.

I hope you become adept at using Fusion360.

I HOPE YOU WILL THEN BE KIND ENOUGH TO HELP ME!

[rcbv]

Wow, it took me a while to read the whole thread. Bob, great feedback thanks for sharing. I'd be interested in knowing what your machining times are for a typical two piece hand injected mold. Ours are running about 3 to 6 hours or more if the bait has lots of thin ribs.

 

With regard to the necessity of CAM software, there is no way we could machine any organic shapes with out CAM software. Here is a picture of a CAD model for a lead jig that is typical of the types of shapes that we have machined molds for. I don't think this could be hand coded very efficiently.

 

 

[Vodkaman]

Good post RS.

 

Interest in CAD from TU members is increasing, mostly among mold users in soft plastics and wire baits. But the way technology is moving with the 3D print technology, I can see a big application in hard baits also. I am hoping to demonstrate this fact when I get my project sorted out.

 

I can also see a future need for a CAD/CAM forum, where people can share their work, ideas and experience. Also 'how-to' CAD tutorials on construction methods and techniques.

 

Yes, models can be passed from one CAD system to another, I do this daily, as the manufacturing firm that I deal with, uses a different system. We generally use STP. My 3D printer wants STL files, my styling modeller prefers IGES. In each case, you receive a dumb model and all the construction detail is lost.

 

Yes, you can edit the dumb model, but anything beyond a few minor tweaks would be hard work.

 

RCBV - nice CAD work.

 

Dave

Edited January 28, 2016 by Vodkaman

[Frank]

Had some time to work with fusion360. Having used Bob cad and Master cam over the past year or so I have to say yes all of the cad stuff is the same just in different places. I actually find that it was much easier to use the fusion because it is set up more like my mind works. May sound funny but I find when learning my mind wants it to be where I think it should. And with fusion it is and does what my mind is thinking. The cam portion is a different story. Yes they do the same thing but little subtletys make a big difference in what the final job looks like. Time will tell but the price even if you bought it is pretty good and you will always have the newest version. Have not ever used a cloud based cad programs do they track what you are doing? It is free but it is for sale too.

[Vodkaman]

I am sure that cloud is the future, but I like files and back-up files on my hard drives. I am old and do not like change. I have been dragged screaming from one Windows OS to the next. But this is the way it is always going to be, change and bigger change.

 

One day you will be trying to explain to your grand kids about these circular discs that went into a slot and you could store 700Kb of data. They will either ask, "What is data"? or "So you invented the wheel"!

 

Dave

[RSullivan]

Frank:

If your asking about Version control when you said

'do the track what you are doing?':

1.) Fusion360 has manual version control capabilities build in. You can have

    multiple versions of the same project components.

2.) It can also interact with other version control software (Like SourceSafe and such)

but I do not believe that anyone here has such facilities.

 

'Cloud' is a pretty wide term nowadays.

This is mostly due to marketing types taking liberties with the term.

A real 'Cloud Application' uses the CPU on the virtual machine it is running within

to perform all of it's tasks. The only thing the CPU is doing on your PC is sort

of showing you what is going on in the application and allowing you to interact

with it.

 

At it's core Fusion360 is really an HTML-5 'application'.

This means that is utilizes your web browser as the 'Program interface'.

it also uses a whole bunch of dynamic link libraries (called 'Plug Ins' in the web

browser world) some of which are installed on your machine.

Fusion360 is actually a 'Hybrid Cloud Application'. Most of what is going on is actually

happening on your PC (using your CPU, Display, Graphic Card and so on). The 'Cloud' aspect

of Fusion360 pretty much relates to where the data (the files) you are working on are

actually located.

 

The CAD / CAM documents (all of the pieces: projects, components, parts, assemblies,

core files,..) are located 'In The 'Cloud' (this is a marketing term).

This is simply a fancy way of saying they are located on a server that you are

accessing via the internet.

The good things about this:

1.) They are always there.

2.) You can access them from any machine that has Fusion360 installed via your account.

    There is no need to copy files from one machine to another.

3.) They are always backed up.

4.) If your machine happens to crash you will not loose any of your data.

One of the strongest aspects of the 'Cloudiness' of Fusion360 is the collaboration

framework that Autodesk has built around it. Say Vodkaman, fishon_son and Bob all

have fusion360 installed.

1.) Vodkaman is really good at producing lure bodies (the 'cutting' element for the mold).

2.) fishon_son is really good at producing the mold halves and injection channels (sprues, gates and such).

3.) Bob has the CNC machines and is really good setting up tool paths.

 

They all three decide to enter a business venture to make a mold and sell the baits,

1.) Say Bob creates the the Fusion360 'project'

2.) Bob adds fishon_son and Vodkaman to the project by inviting them via there email address.

3.) Vodkaman produces the lure component within the project.

4.) fishon_son produces the mold halves within the project.

5.) When Vodkamand and fishon_son have completed their assigned parts Bob creates the

    tool path and runs the CNC simulator to make sure he will not break anything.

6.) Bob then exports the G-code, mounts the machine and cuts the mold.

There is no need to send files to each other.

All of the design work occurs 'In The Cloud'.

All three are working within the same project.

All three can see what each other is doing and the progress they are making.

 

Fusion360 collaboration:

http://fusion360.autodesk.com/learning/learning.html?guid=GUID-6947681D-52CD-48EB-941C-985B34E17671

(Note: This ink does not seem to show the presentation in Google Chrome).

 

In the end though my example 'story' does not has a very happy ending.Vodkaman,

fishon_son and Bob have made a ton of money of off there little venture. In the

end:

1.) They have sold the rights to manufacture the lure to Gary Yammamoto.

2.) They have sold the rights to manufacture a small 4 cavity version of the

    mold to do-it molds.

3.) All three are now semi-retired millionaires.

4.) Vodkamand now lives in Tiawan and acts as a consultant to FeelFree Kayaks.

    He basiclly spends his days fishing from a kayak.

5.) fishon_son moved to Harsens Island on Lake St. Clair and catches 5lb small mouth

    daily.

6.) Bob cashed out and was never heard from again!

 

This is a great thread!

[Frank]

Thanks for the explanation. I will use it more if I have time and see how it goes. The reason I asked about tracking what you do is can they see you are using it for business and not paying for it? It gave me three years free for being a student. Thanks for the heads up.

One note on this thread it has brought out some guys that probably would just read and not say a word. That is a great thing!!!

[RSullivan]

Frank.

I am sure they monitor usage. They will know when you use the program, how long you used it for, how much work you are doing,....

 

My understanding is after your 3 year student license expires you would need to get a new license. If you are using it for business and 'make less than $100,000.00 a year' sign up with the new license as a start-up. I am not sure what exactly they mean by 'makes'. They could be referring to profits or they could be referring to top-line revenues.

[fishon-son]

id like to cash out.........

[rcbv]

Machine times are similar, except that it seems I rarely machine a single cavity mold anymore.  I've got two more mini high speed machines coming, so I may in the future.  Lately I've been doing multi cavity hinged small jig molds a lot it seems.  Usually 4 cavities all the same.  Typically they are running around 2 hours per side not counting secondary operations like pressing in pins, tapping the clamping screw hole, and machining the holes for the hinge pins.  I just did one for a commercial fisherman for lead line weights on his nets,  That one seemed simple, but it still took a little over 3 hrs per side on the high speed mill to do the mold proper.  I also spent some time doing pull pins for the rope hole on the big mill.  In the future if I do more like that I think I'll make a bending jig for my shop press to just bend the large pins into an L shape.  I put hex locked cross handles on this batch.  I learned quite a lot about machining stainless from such a simple project.  I also destroyed a $60 thread mill.  LOL. 

 

Spindle speed and machine acceleration are the biggest limiting factors IMO.  On my little high speed machine I often machine molds faster than you would think even with manual tool changes, but of course I have to be ready to do the tool change when each operation ends to remain efficient.  My existing high speed machine, and my two new ones all have 24K spindles.  I thought about ordering the new ones with 35K spindles, but when I did the math I didn't see where I would save much time since acceleration and rapid speed wouldn't be a huge order of magnitude better.  Even at 25iss I often am not reaching programmed speed during 3D cuts. 

 

I spend a lot of that "standing around time" cutting blanks on the band saw, squaring them up on the big mill (big for me), cutting a radius on alignment pins, and various other jobs, so I am not just wasting my time.  And of course doing CAD and CAM for the next job.

Bob, glad to hear that our machining times are similar, I really couldn't see how to get the times substantially faster. The secondary ops definitely add to the total time. Sounds like we've done similar lead jig molds.

 

 

Don't get me started on broken tooling. We busted a bunch of 1/32in. ball end mills trying to dial in a deep ribbed bait mold. Those were $40 each, nothing like having one break when the mold is 90% done and irreparably damage the mold.

 

 

Anybody thinking of getting into this needs to factor in tooling cost as well as machine cost. You'll need tool holders, a real machining vise, a reliable compressor and a bunch of other stuff that can really add to the cost.

 

I don't use Fusion360 or have a Tormach but for anyone interested look at Youtube channel called NYC Cnc. That guy has Fusion360 tutorials and runs a bunch of Tormach equipment.

Edited January 30, 2016 by rcbv

[majic man]

Rcbv, your paying way way to much for a 1/32 cutter for aluminum. Pm me if you want my insight. If not i understand.

[mark poulson]

Rcbv, your paying way way to much for a 1/32 cutter for aluminum. Pm me if you want my insight. If not i understand.

 Cause you're a Magic Man!  Hahaha

[fishon-son]

if you want to save alot of money try your local cutter grinder for tooling living in southeast michigan we have 100s of shops making and resharping endmills of all sizes and shapes...just two building over from where I work is a shop that makes most if not all of Mitsubishi cutters for the usa line..and they sell the same under there house name...same tool no less....but you have to go to msc.com for there cutters  no general public sales in the front door..at about 50% discount.....putting $$$$ back in your pocket....

[rcbv]

Thanks everyone for your input on end mills. Bob is correct, we were using long reach ball end mills from Harvey Tool. This was a creature mold with about 40 ribs that were .039" thick x .035" spacing. The long reach was required due to the body contours and .250" rib depth.

[Vodkaman]

RCBV - those are very fine ribs and spacing, especially with a rib depth of 0.25". It strikes me that getting the plastic to flow through the ribs would be an issue.

 

When I am designing for Bob, I try hard to give him a minimum cutter of 1/16" diameter, more if possible. If the customer wants finer, then we have a discussion about the design and the customer has to accept the consequences of higher costs due to breakages and machine times.

 

I have come across this in my work, were the machinist bends over backwards trying to accommodate my design. Had I known that there was an issue, I would have been more than willing to change the design to suit the machining requirements. My bosses did not like it, but I always tried to get a meeting with the tool makers before starting a large pressed panel design, to get the design rules sorted out.

 

Design is always a compromise, talking is good.

 

Dave

[rcbv]

Vodkaman, thanks for the advice, that job was problematic to be sure. We barely covered the tool costs but did learn quite a bit about machining ribs .

I think your 1/16" minimum cutter diameter is a good rule for the reasons you mentioned and will probably work for ninety percent of the lure molds we fab. In our non-mold work we've gone as small as .005" diameter for the cutters and .0015" diameter for drilling.

[Vodkaman]

RCBV - those are crazy numbers!

 

Dave

[fishon-son]

getting closer to the bob cad  boy we have had some issues in the shop..dropped a main spindle bearing in the okuma lathe  thats no fun....but there are some machines running it and the guys doing that have said week or so in training and it should be no proplem ...its going to be interesting .im told its much faster then all the line programing

[fishon-son]

is that a 24000 rpm spindle for the pcnc1100 up grade   ?

[mark poulson]

This is a really interesting thread, even for a retired carpenter like me..  Thanks.

[fishon-son]

bob  cant compare 10k machine to 100k machine    3 phase cant get in my state as a home owner .this machine is for putting in your basement or garage...runs on 110 volts  plug and play...

[fishon-son]

my bad  the 1100 is 230

[Baitjunkys]

Problem Is accuracy, you can spin a .03 end mill all day long at 24000 rpm, Its absolutely worthless if it can hit the deep groove in the same spot every time. Your gonna find this on a stepper motor machine. And I cant see you feeding nearly fast enough to take advantage of the 24000 rpm, with any accuracy on a stepper machine either. Maybe a new machine, few years of wear and it is essentially useless. 

Edited October 8, 2016 by Baitjunkys

[Baitjunkys]

A lot has to do with the cutter quality as well. I only use USA made carbide now, From One single source, I just looked, and I got a good finish in a .125 deep slot, .03125 cutter, .003 doc, at 40 IPM. 8000 rpm. I ran 60 cavity's that day. At 20k Rpm I would easily feed it at 100. On my old stepper machine, I would be lucky to feed at 15 ipm without breaking the tool. 

I don't use the advisors at all. I am the try it and see type myself. 

 

Edit, On a 18 yr old machine as well. 

Edited October 8, 2016 by Baitjunkys

[curt k]

there are only a handful of companies world wide that make carbide cutter blanks . Most are made in Israel  . I've excluded China because they mass produce everything , but ironically they have the highest reserves and they are also the largest exporter of raw tungsten . Their claw back of exports is the reason for the price increases over the past several years .

The quality companies for the most part are using the same blanks , they just vary in the quality of their grinding processes . Personally I've always found that the best source for calculating cutter speeds and feeds is straight from the horses mouth , most companies have a recommended sfm for their specific cutters

Edited October 8, 2016 by curt k