fishon-son Posted December 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2015 The 1100 does not have a 10K spindle. If I recall its only 5140. The 770 and 440 have 10K spindles. I don't even have to look that up. hey bob I stand corrected you were right ..but I did say I thought it was a 10 k spindle never said it was.....majic man...1st don't need you to make me a mold...2nd. our trained guys start on our lathes programing straight od,id work.when they move to the mills it back to start with them square ups.and roughing parts in....its kept simple.......yes they have many question but most can copy over the programming with in 3-5 days not saying there masters at it.and they are checked before they run....im not taking away anything from anybody or what you do..i liked what I saw in the machine that's me....good for you if you have something better in your garage.this would fit well in my 1 bay and that's my call when that happens...if YOU CAN GET SOMETHING BETTER FOR YOUSELF GET IT....if you have something better good..its starting to remind me of the thread last year or so about plastisol......and it seams to be some of the same people pissing a longer stream....my friend makes great looking parts with his ..he said it should do fine so ill look at that when that day comes.hey bob maybe I could upgrade that to a 10 k.......... have fun guys ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majic man Posted December 19, 2015 Report Share Posted December 19, 2015 My offer still stands. Hand program a 3d cavity and ill cut it free of charge.. Hey if a tormach fits you that is great. Im just pointing out, There is better alternatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt k Posted December 19, 2015 Report Share Posted December 19, 2015 hass mini mills and tm mills are set to run single phase . It comes with a sacrifice of some torque . The tm's already have a gutless spindle so a converter would probably be best with them , though I do know a few guys who are running them single phase in their garages . A faster spindle can be advantageous in some aspects but in complex situations the benefits probably aren't going to be there The super mini's with their 10,000 rpm spindle are limited to how fast they can process . Even with the hsm options the mills can't reach the top feed rates on complex toolpaths , and this is something that I've seen time and time again . The hsm option creates a much smoother motion and the mills aren't nearly as jerky , but Ive had a number of times that I've over road the feedrate and they won't move any faster . They're obviously going to beat a tormach or the likes , but hass are still the bottom of the barrel of the production types of machines and they have many limits in comparison to the quality of the Japanese mills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majic man Posted December 19, 2015 Report Share Posted December 19, 2015 Good insight curt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majic man Posted December 19, 2015 Report Share Posted December 19, 2015 (edited) Yes. But your comparing gold to dirt. Be more realistic in your comparison. I have seen several old haas machines in the 10k range. That would leave any tormach crying like a baby in the corner... Edited December 19, 2015 by majic man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent I Posted December 19, 2015 Report Share Posted December 19, 2015 I've been reading this thread with great interest, as I used to do design work for a living, running Pro-E. I've periodically looked around for an inexpensive CAD package that will do free form surfacing, but haven't found any that work well. Has anything come along in the last few years that will do the trick without breaking the bank, or is it still better to just hand carve and scan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Kent - not sure what you mean by free form; do you mean drawing a simple surface and then pulling the shape around. I use Catia V5 and use engineering construction. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Fish on, You said,"so kids,if you want to be a machinist stay in school learn your math don't run with scissors and drink milk." You forgot, "and brush often with Crest, which has been shown to be an effective decay preventive dentifrice, when used in a conscientiously applied program of oral hygiene, and regular professional care". Hahaha 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent I Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Kent - not sure what you mean by free form; do you mean drawing a simple surface and then pulling the shape around. I use Catia V5 and use engineering construction. Dave im talking about drawing in modifiable cross sections that can be meshed, then modified or faired to refine the shape. I'be never worked with Catia; has it been ported to pc's, or is it still strictly mainframe? Anyway, I've tried freecad, which reminds me of Pro-E 20 years ago, and Freeship, which is burns based, and easy to work with, but is meant for ship design, so the units are hard to deal with, and Rhino, which just didn't seem all that great. Pro-E is great, but out of my price range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 Catia V5 is a system that can be adapted to just about any design industries requirements, but accordingly it is a huge system. You only need to learn the sections that apply to you. Catia V5 is now windows based and can but run successfully on just about any system without having to buy anything special. The Catia V5 is made available, unofficially, free for anyone and can be downloaded using the torrent system, just like downloading a movie. The company does this, to allow anyone to train up on their software and thus make the Catia product more attractive to industry, as more users of Catia are in the market. You cannot buy this software, it is only available OFFICIALLY under a very expensive license. Lots of free training materials on the web also. DAve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 mark you always seam to be there for a laugh.......I was at the comedy shop last night... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 "The mind works in mysterious ways", when it works. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 well i think we learned something from this thread..i went back 10 pages to see if there were any threads with 127 hits and nope not 1 close..so I will say this was good...I feel we all have different opinions on machining my back ground is in the automotive machining...im not a mold maker and have never made molds for a living...I do have a few molds that I have made and the baits I will say work well..so good. that , I shocked myself..this is why I started this thread...just to see who and what was out there and what people like myself were doing...if any started a small shop or just kept it simple for themselves...it went down a few roads that I never even though it would go...I found out some things about others that was different from were I stand as a person.....and felt I was quick to be attacked about it...im good ..hoping others are good...I think we are all here for the same reason to learn more about lure making .I'm not a master at it at all..i just finished a few crank bait carvings and waiting to learn how to paint them.my next carving will be a perch decoy for perch spearing...that's right perch spearing my son dose this on lake st clair and there seams to be a large number of people that do this out there just like pike spearing.i guess they come right to the decoy and don't spook after you hit them..son says he can get 3/4 out of the school of 5/7 ..the buckets of perch he has dropped off were large and half full..... thanks to all that participated...and please keep discussing this thread we all learn from it.... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt k Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) there's no reason that a tormach can't be used to make molds . I do agree with others that conversational programming does have its limits . At the end of the day it is all about math as you previously stated fish-on and math is what the cam products use to produce g code , but the math is quite complex . Most cnc machines will calculate macro variables and there are calculations for figuring out geometric shapes . So it is possible to hand code a geometric 3d shape with looping sub routines that calculates each move on a geometric shape , Lets assume we're using a ball nose and the routine started from the pocket outer edge , scaling can be used within a loop to calculate step over etc . Now on a ball shaped cavity , step down would also need another portion of the sub routine added to calculate how much further in the start point is from the last .. A bit of trig would probably do the trick for that . The routine/routines can run from a start point looping through until the tool reaches the bottom of the pocket and a few variable stating that if the loop is smaller than ... then the routine is done . Squares are dead simple to create a pocket routine but 3d circles , ellipses etc can become quite complex for calculating . This type of programming can be very mind challenging and time consuming which needs a strong mind and well trained foresight . Tris is only regarding true geometric shapes , oddball shapes are going to be extremely hard to do if they are doable at all At the end of the day cam does the calculating for us within seconds and we can trust the code that comes out . I do a lot of hand coding in a day but when its a complicated part which is going to eat up a lot of time then I'm all over the cam software Edited December 20, 2015 by curt k 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt k Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) It's not limited to being just the mini's . It's just what hass has in the mills . I'm not saying that they are slow , because they are quite fast but many time fast isn't as fast as we would like and thats where the problem is . I've never worked with the office mill and after seeing the price I have no interest in the mill , so I honestly have no idea of it's performance . I look at that thing as buying one mill or two , and two spindles will put out far more parts in a day than one faster one. I'd assume that it's typical to the rest at which they throw the same controller on as they do with all of their other mills and if thats the case then processing speed will be always an issue . It certainly wouldn't be a size issue because I used to work on a toyoda fh630 that has scary fast rapids , and it's a heart stopper when a guy forgets to drop the rapids while doing a setup . Mind you for the price of that 1 mill a guy/gal can fill a shop with smaller hass mills . Bottom line is that hass makes a decent mill , cheaper , reliable , and fixes are cheap in comparison to the Japanese mills . But , they are also weaker and not nearly as rigid (industrial speaking) . I personally think that there are much better options out there that are in the same price range as the office mill . I honestly can't picture it being a big seller because for one theres zero logic in having a noisy stinky mill in an office environment ,and I see it as more of a novelty item than a practical one Ultimately theres a mill for nearly ever need the limiting factors are being able to accommodate the machine or afford it . After a certain price range a guy has to ask himself if molds are going to pay the mill off sooner or is other work the better choice . For me it's a passion , I've lived and breathed fishing all of my life so it's a gig that I enjoy doing , but if I had a couple hundred thou into machinery then changes are that I'd be chasing down contract work Edited December 20, 2015 by curt k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt k Posted December 20, 2015 Report Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) acceleration on tight g code is still going to be limited to processor speed . Rapid speeds can certainly shave off time over a year , but if working part by part then the time saved can be somewhat insignificant . I worked in one company that we could barely keep up with with the production . We made our own parts for a large assembly . We leaned out the processes so that everything was fixtured and set with either g52 or g10 shifts . Plunk a fixture on and go (more or less) . We went as far as having each tool shelved and numbered with the tool heights marked so that they could be dropped into the machine and good to go (mils with small tool magazines ). Time studies were something that we looked at and the difference from a short tool holder to a longer tool holder was quite surprising . Longer holders meant less distance for rapids , and an inch or two on each holder that we could extend added up to x amount more assemblies that we could produce in a year . It was actually quite shocking the savings that we gained in that alone . The key is that these were also done on cell systems with multi pallets , so there was no need to factor in loading time . These were all cool in a controlled production environment but it doesn't really apply for jobbing types of work . I know how to make things work in all environments , so while working with my own equipment I process everything in a way to compensate for lacks in performance , etc , it's just a matter of taming the nature of the beast Edited December 20, 2015 by curt k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Fishon-son - All this G-code, mesh and all the rest is all well and good. BUT, in the real world, you do use CAD, yes? DAve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 dave - no i dont...we have master cam and i think its called bob/cad...i could be wrong on the bob/cad..but,i think that's what its called....I do program and run mazaks ,okumas mori/seki I'm not a mold maker.but have done a few for myself...the rest of my molds come from bears and basstackle...also do-it ...I work for a plastic injection co. that makes all the components to get the plastic to the mold...we rebuild all types of grinders for cutting up plastic.and also dryers ..but, I'm not on that crew..i program and run the lathes and mills.to make parts like barrels screws tips and points.and a crap load of other stuff....this is a hobby making lures and plastic baits. ..I find myself living very close to world class fishing lakes and take full avantage of that .( if you bass fish then I'm sure you know about erie and st.clair there in the top 5 lakes in the world.and are better then what they say..100 plus bass days are all to common most 3/5 lbsmy best was a 8lb smallie but we never got the picture.sometimes that's how it works)...I have 30 yrs exp.running cnc lathes and mills...to me cad is ok for a big production run but , in a small job shop to me its a waste ..don't get me wrong dave I'm not taking anything away from no one..but, I'm more the old school programmer..on my bench you will see 10 drafting pads a calculater and a box of pencils.all my mics,indictors calipers height stands sit on the other side or in my box... so thats about it dave....cad/cam I know nothing about.living in the suburbs of Detroit ive made it all with out it...I push the math skills because,what was told to me by a older Russian machinist when I was a green horn..he spoke very little English and took me under his wing..what I got from him was my math skills.funny thing he was a engine lathe guy running a old Mazak engine lathe and was the best at it...his best advise was math is king.it runs the universe.understand it and you can do or make anything..the 70 yr old man was a genius..i was 21. my thought on cad / cam its for the person that is doing heavy detail and cant program it....PLEASE.LETS NOT TAKE THAT WRONG...its just not for me..the cost for what I want to do in my garage isn't worth it...im not looking to be a mold maker but have the chance to make some cool baits.for myself and friends,,not to sell..i don't have time hell I give all of my stuff away just for the old baits to remelt..lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curt k Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) Note: "Feed rate over ride" does nothing to change the acceleration rate of the machine. Have you ever seen a G or M code for acceleration? Acceleration is limited by the control software for feeds and rapids to a level that is possible by the physical hardware within the acceptable following error settings. From my experience the limitation is usually with your actual axis control and motor. If you are running PC Based systems like I am you could be limited by computer hardware, but that's so easy to upgrade its hardly worth a mention. Cheap too. Though I stand on everything else i stated I do have to correct myself about processor speed and acceleration , I was jotting stuff down as i went along . The two don't necessarily react together . But if your working with short choppy segmented code then processor speed will affect the machines performance no mater what the acceleration levels are at . The machine look ahead can only run so deep and in this it is processing moves ahead of time . Feedrate over ride doesn't affect the acceleration but it is the acceleration levels which affect the feedrates as you've already pointed out . Ive had jobs that were set to 80 ipm to start with and when Ive over rode the feed then the machine didn't move any faster even at 200% . This was typically due to choppy code , when I optimized the coding then the difference shines quite brightly , getting the hsm option smoothed things out that much more . Regarding saving time , there are countless ways to do that , proper toolpaths . proper tools , proper code and processing . It boils down to knowing how to make things work , there are guys that can make gold out of crap or crap out of gold . We all have our preferred ways of doing things as well as the equipment that we prefer to work with (ford vs chevy) . I'm not looking to knock the office mill or any other mill but I also have my own views as to what is the ideal setup for what I do . Ive also built enough cnc's from the ground up The first was an mdf framed router table , it was ugly and slow as crap but it worked and it was just a fun project , and though I work in the industry I still love the simple things in life . Ive retrofit plenty of mills so I'm well aware of how acceleration and many other factors play their roll on a cnc . As the quality of a factory cnc rises then the lesser the problem is with these factors because they simply have better quality hardware Edited December 21, 2015 by curt k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Fishon - thanks for the reply. I brought it up because you mentioned that you do stuff for the automotive industry. You certainly live in the right place for that opportunity. I worked in the Chrysler Jeep design office a few years back. Most Auto customers would usually insist that you not only had CAD, but the same system as the customer. BUT, given the types of parts that you specialize in, this certainly would not be necessary. I guess this is more applicable for shaped panel tool machining. The lure stuff that I design is never going to a CNC shop, it is designed for rapid prototype (RP) ABS 3D printing. From the print model of a mold negative, I then pour a silicone mold. RP and silicone means that I can have lots of undercuts with no 3-axis limitations. I can make the parts exactly how I want them. As you see from the pic below, the complexity of the mold plate would not be feasible without CAD. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Bob - I love working on your stuff, I learn so much. What I am talking about is my personal projects. This one is similar to our joint project that we started and will finish I am sure. I am in no hurry about that. I wanted to do a project that I can control here, using the materials that I have available. I don't have plastisol, expanding foams, microballoons and all the rest. So this 4" 4 section swimmer is designed to be a close to neutral, poured from regular fiberglass resin. It will be two halves, glued together, with air pockets to provide the buoyancy and the size 4 treble provides the ballast, I just hope it is enough. Because I escape the limitations of 3-axis, I am able to hide the hinges a little more. The pic above shows the mother mold which will create a symmetrical mold half. Two of them will pour two sets for one half of the lure. If it works, I will get the other half made. I don't even know if I can get this to pour, there are so many sections (14 in all) that the resin must permeate in one shot. I am using a combination of two new pouring ideas that I have been thinking and talking about for some time; a built in injection system to push the resin, and a vacuum system to pull at the same time. If this lure works, we will have to re-visit our project and re-think a few things. Also, this opens up a whole new level of lure complexity, to pour the unpourable. But, I have to get this one working first. I am probably about 60 - 70 hours in over the last week, just to emphasize that CAD is certainly no short cut! Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 dave you have a very complex lure there...i can see were cad would be a big benifit for you and this lure...but im refuring to plastisol molds .i see alot of differant baits and some are very complex.and cad would be great for those..but when looking at a mold and bait for fishing...it appears that we as fisherman are fooled by what is really needed to catch fish... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 Fish-son, I know I put way more into a bait than is needed just to catch fish, because it is fun! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 dave, it is call bob/cad that is used on the floor of the shop..i asked today and was shown what it dose....its 3/d software....it will be interesting to learn.....they use master/cam up front...so what I thought was a waste of time maybe a useful tool.i got a quick walk thru and was a bit surprised... the shop wants to stream line the programming with it starting next year....we did talked molds to...so maybe when we slow down there will be some play time..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 Fish-on - yes, a lot of detail. Customers paying for a hard bait custom design mold expect to see some detail. They want fins with bones, raised gill plates, raised eyes or sockets are of course standard. The lips really sell the design. I do draw the line though; only one raised gill plate, even though fish pics show two or even three layered plates. NO SCALES. Design time - the basic body shape can take between 1 and 3 hours, depending on the complexity of the shape and whether I have to trace a photo which is very time consuming, or just follow basic dimensions of length depth and width in say a shad pattern, much easier. Tail or no tail gets modeled at this stage and adds more time. The raised head and gill plate can take the same amount of time again, as it involves the same construction process, plus the gill profile and eyes. The mouth is tedious work and will take a minimum 1 - 2 hours. The spiked dorsal is a monster to design, with close to 300 design elements involved. My first attempts at spiked dorsal design had more than a thousand elements. regular fins have more than 100 elements. Raised pectoral fins around 120 elements, but very tedious design. A set of fins will add 12 - 15 hours to the design time. Piano hinges can be simple or complex, this is largely due to the required gaps. The above design is set at 1mm, so the smallest gap is a constant 1mm. I can change this down to 0.5mm, but topcoat would start to become an issue. 6 - 8 hours. Inserts/air pockets and density calculations is another time consuming operation and can take upwards of 8 hours with all the adjustments to get the numbers right. Another 8 hours on the mold layout. Modeling all the vents and pour holes, locators and stuff is not complex or particularly time consuming, but the planning and thinking time can be extensive. A block of wood and some basic tools and the job is done in a few hours. The time savings come later, when I can pour a set of ten bodies in fifteen minutes, glue and assemble with low skilled operations in around 5 - 10 minutes per lure, with each lure being identical. Often it would seem that I am trying to sell the CAD method, but I am sure that the above timing statement would put most people off. Keep in mind, those times are with me having experience and methods, techniques and procedures already in place. Developing these techniques took many attempts and hundreds of hours. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
