BobP Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Stronger is stronger, but I consider all this in the light that you also fish with line that will break at a few pounds of strain and that rod guides will typically pull off a rod blank at less than 20 lbs of force. So if my hangers will hold at above those strains, it's really gilding the lily to demand they hold out at huge strain weights. I think any or all of the methods described will work just fine. I've fished and destroyed a lot of wood crankbaits in my time but have never had a hook hanger or line tie fail. Maybe I need to hook much larger fish than 10 lb largemouths! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 I've fished and destroyed a lot of wood crankbaits in my time but have never had a hook hanger or line tie fail. Same here, don't recall ever having one fail. Guys don't think about the details you listed or that they have a 7ft shock they are using to boot and add another 2 feet of shock called your arm. We all want to build a good performing bait that performs just some really enjoy putting A LOT of time into getting that bait. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 (edited) I want to make the baits as fast as possible. To allow me to do others things. However being new to this, I want a good foundation. Taking time at my point of producing baits will allow me to make a good bait each time. I'm now at a point of doing just that. Being confident in the process you set allows this. I would build a house with a good foundation and work my way up with a good process. For me the house is build, but my eyes are still open to something new and maybe better. Being fast is really irrelevant when I like hand shaping my baits by hand. Let's call it faster. Take Care, Dale Edited December 29, 2015 by DaleSW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 Dale - there is no harm in trying to do things a little faster, it is something that I cannot help but to strive for. It all comes down to technique whether you are doing a through wire harness or a twisted wire eye. A few seconds does not sound worth cribbing about, but I bet you could save 10 - 20 seconds per twisted eye simply by performing a time and motion study on exactly how you make one. Identify the dead times were nothing is being done. 10 seconds saving x 100 eyes is 16 minutes. Time lost searching for the long nose pliers, because you threw then down onto the bench to get faster, but they are in a different place every time, same with the cutters. Do you occasionally drop an eye during the trimming operation, which stops production while you stoop to retrieve it. Annoying, but it would be more efficient to let it go and make a fresh eye. Examine your hand movements in the trimming operation; how to stop the dropped eye, how to stop the stub ends from flying all over the shop. Trim the wire to the correct length before starting. Once you have established the correct length that is efficient for manufacture and minimum waste, mark it down. It is best to make the eyes in bulk. so when you need more eyes, spend an hour just making eyes. This way, you find your technique slickens up and becomes more time and motion efficient. Plus, next time you need to make eyes, your hands will quickly remember how you did it last time. The operation is stored in long term memory rather than short term memory. Good jigs will save time and improve efficiency. My barrel twist jig is simply a brass pin on the end of a rod, that clamps in the vise. I did make a complex barrel twist jig to automate the process, but examining the two videos, it was no faster than the manual operation, but fun to use. Here are the vids: Manual barrel twist - Barrel twist tool - Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 Dale - there is no harm in trying to do things a little faster, it is something that I cannot help but to strive for. It all comes down to technique whether you are doing a through wire harness or a twisted wire eye. A few seconds does not sound worth cribbing about, but I bet you could save 10 - 20 seconds per twisted eye simply by performing a time and motion study on exactly how you make one. Identify the dead times were nothing is being done. 10 seconds saving x 100 eyes is 16 minutes. Time lost searching for the long nose pliers, because you threw then down onto the bench to get faster, but they are in a different place every time, same with the cutters. Do you occasionally drop an eye during the trimming operation, which stops production while you stoop to retrieve it. Annoying, but it would be more efficient to let it go and make a fresh eye. Examine your hand movements in the trimming operation; how to stop the dropped eye, how to stop the stub ends from flying all over the shop. Trim the wire to the correct length before starting. Once you have established the correct length that is efficient for manufacture and minimum waste, mark it down. It is best to make the eyes in bulk. so when you need more eyes, spend an hour just making eyes. This way, you find your technique slickens up and becomes more time and motion efficient. Plus, next time you need to make eyes, your hands will quickly remember how you did it last time. The operation is stored in long term memory rather than short term memory. Good jigs will save time and improve efficiency. My barrel twist jig is simply a brass pin on the end of a rod, that clamps in the vise. I did make a complex barrel twist jig to automate the process, but examining the two videos, it was no faster than the manual operation, but fun to use. Here are the vids: Manual barrel twist - Barrel twist tool - Dave I do this at work, just pumping oil... Back when we were busy, making 20-30 deliveries a day, saving a few minutes at each stop can get me home a few hours earlier Doing everything in the exact same order every time becomes a routine, and i flow through each job without missing anything and no time wasted thinking about the next step... Sounds crazy to some, but seconds add up to minutes that add up to half hours that add up to hours I have a routine like that for pouring plastics... But so much goes into building cranks, it will take a while to reach that point! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 Exactly JR - every one of my daily chores, from making coffee to sweeping the floors, head shaving to drying after a shower, gets this treatment. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 I never worry about doing things faster. I only have three kids so time is abundant . If I could save 10 to 20 seconds making an eye then they would magically appear already made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 Travis - you are making a haywire twist, the loose barrel twist takes a lot longer, but in my opinion is a better solution. This is personal choice and builders use both, in fact most use the haywire twist. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 You guys need to learn to slow down or your obsession with shaving a few seconds off of every little task is going to end up eating a hole in your stomach. It's been said that stress is a killer and it really is. If you don't end up killing yourself it may be those around you that end up in your cross hairs. Ben 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 Ben - I know, it is weird and not normal. I have been obsesssed with time and motion ever since we covered it on the HND engineering course in college, and I did a rotation in the time keepers office on the shop floor. This guy set the times for the jobs. The operators had to beat this time to earn bonus payments, so it was a constant battle. I am also severe left brained, which means this is what I do for fun, along with making lists and memorizing credit card numbers. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 When I worked on the job as a carpenter, I was always looking for ways to save time, and get more done in a day. I just figured it was because being more productive was a goal, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 Yes Mark - it is amazing how much extra time IS available, but you have to look for it. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 being paid off commission, speed just comes natural.. only reason to work late is for more money, but if i can go home early and make the same, ill work faster! stressful? hell yea its stressful!... and it bleeds over into other aspects of life... but i wouldnt go back to hourly pay now that ive gotten use to it... i dont have to work my life away now to earn a good wage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 (edited) Travis - you are making a haywire twist, the loose barrel twist takes a lot longer, but in my opinion is a better solution. This is personal choice and builders use both, in fact most use the haywire twist. Dave I have to ask why is it better? I make mine quicker it performs as needed 100 percent of time for the application it is intended. This is the point with many of these threads...over engineered and over complicated for no real world reason that guys are using the baits for. Edited December 29, 2015 by Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 I have to ask why is it better? I make mine quicker it performs as needed 100 percent of time for the application it is intended. This is the point with many of these threads...over engineered and over complicated for no real world reason that guys are using the baits for. I use the barrel twist and don't care that it takes me longer since I don't build baits for profit. The "reason" I like the barrel twist is that it gives me peace of mind. In my mind it's the stronger of the two and gives me one less thing to worry about. Not saying that the haywire twist isn't strong enough for anything that may be thrown at it. It's just what I prefer. Ben 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 WOW, it's your prerogative to do as you wish and how you wish. It also doesn't hurt to throw out ideas. As far as for me "I'm not trying to build baits in production". As far as someone's else opinions and thoughts as long as they are offending I will respect it. I'm not closed minded either. I either agree or not. I think what helps me, I will value your opinion. Have a fantastic day, Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted December 29, 2015 Report Share Posted December 29, 2015 (edited) This isn't about how one wants to make a bait and definitely not anything I hope people are getting upset over. Please everyone use whatever they like. More ways to do something great as it might be easier for some to do it. In regards to a line tie if the haywire or barrel or cotter pin perform 100 percent of time is any one "better" than the other based on a given physical measurable trait that is actually related to how we use it? I think from my fisheries classes that barrel twist for light wire were considered weaker than haywire, but that has been a very long time ago. Reason barrel twists are wound and create very small diameter twists putting more strain on the wire than haywire. Vodka mentioned loose so that shouldn't matter and in our case because this isn't an open system and the wire is glued into the walls of a bait but strength was the only thing I could think why it was better. Edited December 29, 2015 by Travis 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 i think i seen a you tube video where a guy used nails in a piece of wood to have a form and bent his wire around the form to match his lure..that seams good..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) i think i seen a you tube video where a guy used nails in a piece of wood to have a form and bent his wire around the form to match his lure..that seams good..... It is a very nice way to do it for sure. I have a few boards made up (story boards the term I believe). I put three or four baits on the same board. I would take a finished bait and drive nails through the line and hook hangers then clip the heads off the nail and slide the bait up. I would take the next bait and use the tail hook hanger nail of the prior and repeat. I think just labeled the areas for the type bait and amount weight needed. It would go quick to make the various through wire harnesses I needed for the molds and load up a plano box of harnesses ready to go. Edited December 30, 2015 by Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 hey dave, great video..but what about twist wire pliers....would be much faster.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 i think there call safety locking pliers.....i used them alot in the miltary on aircraft...like $15.bucks that would be alot quicker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 i think there call safety locking pliers.....i used them alot in the miltary on aircraft...like $15.bucks that would be alot quicker I don't think I had seen those before Right or left hand twist and reversible. Very cool and they even come in left and right hand twist. Huge price difference from sub 10 dollars (Harbor freight) up to 150 bucks.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 I don't think I had seen those before Right or left hand twist and reversible. Very cool and they even come in left and right hand twist. Huge price difference from sub 10 dollars (Harbor freight) up to 150 bucks.... they all work the same ...$150 is the governments price..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 just wrap wire around a nail put both end in the plier and pull ... twist right around.......easy button...push......lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 Twist diameter - the diameter of the barrel twist is 3xdiameter of the wire, the diameter of the haywire is less than 2xdiameter of the wire. This forces a larger hole by 2:1. This gives more surface area contact between the epoxy and the wood. This reduces the shear load per area and thus increases the strength of the attachment. grip - The surface of a loose barrel twist provides spaced ridges similar to the coarse threads of a screw eye, whereas the haywire provides very little keying for the epoxy. This enhanced keying prevents the shaft being pulled out. My testing has proven beyond doubt that the loose barrel twist is a lot stronger and more secure than the haywire twist. Yes, the manufacture of the barrel twist is about double of the haywire, but this extra 25 seconds per eye is time well spent in my opinion. Complicated - really? Over engineered - no, just engineered. No world reason - a more secure bait is a very good reason. When ever I discuss barrel twist, I always acknowledge that most builders use the haywire twist and very successfully. If you ask me if the haywire is good enough, I will answer, "Sure it is good enough". If you ask me which is better, there is absolutely no doubt that the barrel twist is better. I am an engineer, as such I naturally want to build a 'better' bait, not a 'good enough' bait. This is the principle adopted by most engineers when designing a product, we strive to improve and put out the best product that we can. Engineers drive progress. Management will always crave a 'good enough' product because it is cheaper - zero improvement, zero progress, zero evolution. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
