Northern Pike & Musky Baits

[SW Lures]

I didn't have time this morning, so here I go. I'm making some baits for these critters. These are being done for a friend who ask me to do a few for him. He fishes northeast US and across to our friends in Canada. One place is the St. Lawrence River.

He told me that a Yellow Perch (Ring Perch) is a forage bait up there. I have never fished up there, I'm a southern boy . I was thinking about two minnow shape baits. One about 6-8" & one about 4-5", both with a 3/4" width. The 8" will have lower belly and the other with a thinner look. They both will be made from two pieces of poplar with a SS through wire (trust me it won't break). I'm going to glue them together and then dowel them together with SS pins.

My questions is

1) Is the size of the baits right?

2) Is the color scheme right and what other scheme can I use?

2) Is the wood correct? I wanted to stay light but give some strength.

Hooks will be beefy, believe me. Coatings will be as strong as I can make it. Any thoughts are welcome.

Thank you,

Dale

Edited December 11, 2015 by DaleSW

[DaBehr]

I follow this process

Andy

[fishon-son]

to small   muskies up here run and like bigger baits...8inch.is on the small size but will work   12/14 inch. baits work better..im doing the same thing..they cost to much...im fishing lk.st.clair. for muskies/pike..but the local pike lakes like 10inch.baits   big water bigger baits......st.clair has a lot of 40/50 inch class fish....with most fisherman letting them go.....

[fishon-son]

lots of shad in the great lks. if thats where there fishing maybe make one like a shad pattern..and those shad are big....

[Vodkaman]

The perch body profile is very distinctive, with the bump from behind the head to the dorsal. If you want to represent the perch, you should find a profile from pics on the web and include this. The bump and the low head will actually help with the action on a lipless swimbait, if that is what you are going for.

 

Dave

[SW Lures]

I understand the lower head of the perch species. I have thought about a swimbait. V-Man I have never made a swimbait. Well I guess this time is as good as any time, maybe a two piece. I'm wondering what type of henge can be use and would survive of a moderate-large strike of these super predators.

If I lost one and learnt from it.....it would be somewhat ok. But this is a friend that I want to give a weapon not just a bait. He will not go up there until spring. But it takes me time to test and get it ready. Also I have let the conversation to dry up. These are going to be a surprise for him, and I'm not a last minute person to get things ready.

Now you know the whole story.

Thanks and will be checking in,

Dale

[Vodkaman]

OK then, perhaps a lipless swimbait is not the thing to do at this stage. Best to stick with the type of bait that your friend is comfortable using and keep the swimbait as a future project.

 

When you do tackle the swimbait, better with at least three sections, I prefer four. Lots of people do two piece, it depends on the type of swim action you want. Have a look through some videos to see the difference in the shape of the swim action and decide what you are looking for. It is important to be in control. Make the bait do what YOU want it to do, rather than just build and accept what the bait gives you.

 

Dave

[mark poulson]

For me, two piece slow sink lipless swimbaits swim in a lazy S pattern.  The longer the bait, the bigger the S.  They will catch fish all year.

Three piece faster sink baits swim with the tail section flapping like a flag in the wind.  Great for faster retrieves, in early spring next to steep walls, and anytime the water is 55 degrees and up.  I also like them fished fast across submerged weeds.  They move enough water to draw reaction strikes from fish in the grass.

Four piece slow sink baits swim in more snake like pattern, wiggling along.  They are great at any speed, and in warmer (55 and up) water.  I get a lot more followers who don't commit with a four piece.  It gets their attention, but not as aggressively, so I usually have to trigger strikes by speeding up the bait, or having it do a 180 degree turn and pause, so it's looking back at the follower.  But lots of times the bass just turn away, like they were just curious, but not interested in eating.

Try giving your baits a V cross section, with the back and shoulders thicker than the belly, like 1" at the top, and 5/8" at the bottom.  That way, the back/top of the bait is naturally more buoyant, so your bait won't roll on a fast retrieve.  And keep your ballast as low as possible, and in the front section(s), never in the tail.  That way the bait will swim level, instead of tail down.

I don't know how to make a jointed bait that will hold up to a musky, but I've had some eaten by barracudas.  Plan on doing repairs.

[diemai]

@ DaleSW

 

Can't tell about musky baits, as we don't have'em over here in Europe , but our average bigger hardbaits for pike range in about 6" to 8"(15cms to 20cms) , though there are a few bigger ones around still , ........but average anglers barely throw these , there are even only few rods available to handle them .

 

But anyway , ....if you want to resemble a perch as main prey in mentioned waters , I'd also suggest to make the entire lure shape like a perch , .....check out this one as a sample :

 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Balzer-Colonel-Gold-Natural-Power-Wobbler-Monsterbarsch-110-g-/161219858013?hash=item258973ce5d:g:lh8AAOxy4dNS9SzR

 

This lure is 18cms(7") in length and weights 110 grams , runs at about 13feet ,........put out by the German tackle company "Balzer" , but discontinued by now , ..there also was a deep runner version with a bigger lip going down to 30 feet .

 

Not 100% sure , but I think , that I have one shallow running "Monster Perch" laying around somewhere , ....if so , I could provide some pics and accurate measurements , if you wish ,......as from Monday on , since I'm working weekend shifts right now .

 

Other European pike lures holding an excellent reputation are the "Rapala Super Shad Rap" and the "Turus Ukko" ,...both Finnish made .

 

The "Super Shad Rap" is 14cms in length , whereas the "Turus Ukko" was available in lengths of up to 40cms(16").

 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Rapala-Wobbler-Super-Shad-Rap-14cm-SSR-14-P-Perch-neu-/251996858651?hash=item3aac2ee91b:m:mc6nxb7MfyeM0ppvnLcbcRA

 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/orig-TURUS-UKKO-8-Stuck-aus-der-1-finnischen-Serie-von-1993-bis-2003-/181939232466?hash=item2a5c6c5ed2:g:2l0AAOSwo6lWKjR0

 

There are templates of both lures to be found in here :

 

http://wobblerbaujw.jimdo.com/schablonen/wobbler/#Wobbler

 

I remember to have seen bigger , US custom-made versions of the "Super Shad Rap" , but I just can't remember the site , ..these were at least 8" in length ,..maybe even quite a bit larger ?

 

If you should have further questions , just call back in , .......greetings , Dieter

 

PS : I am in no way involved into these Ebay listings , solely using them as picture samples for the mentioned lure models .

Edited December 12, 2015 by diemai

[Vodkaman]

Mark - good read. I have never had an opportunity to fish these big baits. I just had great fun designing, building and testing.

 

I have a set of 3 PDF files, of perch body profiles from 100mm (4") up to 300mm (12") in 25mm steps. If anyone wants the profiles, PM me your email addy.

 

Dave

[SW Lures]

It really does look like the Pike and Musky like Perch and a bright “Fire Tiger” schemes  , the way the manufactures keeps close to these schemes, Dieter. Yeah I finally got on the computer to get into TU. I appreciate all of you thoughts to help me.

 

Mark that was a very good post and has helped me a lot. But when  I saw this sentence this morning I woke up the house laughing and I’m still smiling while typing this.

 

 

I don't know how to make a jointed bait that will hold up to a musky, but I've had some eaten by barracudas.  Plan on doing repairs.

 

 

 

There are a few others that I would like to hear from on this subject. People that dedicates their time to these species of fish. Y’all’s information has helped a lot and I’m going to blend it all together to try to design a good lure.

 

By the way, how do you like my new profile Pic? I have several more completed baits but can’t dang well figure out how to post them in the gallery, unless I have to do what I did here for the profile.The other baits I think is better then this one. I’ll give it a go later.

 

I sometime finish with “Cheers”, but I like these lil guys. That’s me on the right.

Dale

Edited December 12, 2015 by DaleSW

[woodieb8]

dalesw. being on l.st cl. I build musky baits . if your targeting l. st clair. remember the baits should be medium depth runners . most build with 45 degree lip angle for cranks. average lure sizes are 5-7 summer months peaking out to 10 inch in late fall. lip shape will dictate wobble desired. if you want to pursue a lipless casting swimbait sebille has ann excellent model that's successful here. . as for colors naturals in clean waters and bright in off waters. .best forage base is perch,smallmouth bass in naturals. gizzard shad is only a fall color due to migration. hope you have success hunting mr toothy. you will get the bug after hooking into a few slobs.

[JRammit]

Wish i could help more, but ive never fished musky... I lived in Colorado for 8 years, they were there, but i couldnt afford the tackle to go after em........ Closest encounter i had was when one got too close to my stringer full of trout and i had to scare it off

But, my 2 cents might get your wheels turning.... I bet everyone and their grandma throws perch and trout patterns for musky and pike... But theres one highly underestimated forage species that doensnt seem to find its face on many lures... Probably because its so ugly

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_sucker

In Colorado we had the long nose sucker fish, i called it the "mile high shad"... When we could get frozen suckers at the bait shop, we knew it was gonna be a good day!

Occasionally while fishing with my brother in laws, one of us would catch one using night crawlers, then that person would cut it up for bait and outfish the rest of us all day

Of course we were fishing for trout... But i highly suspect suckers were a large part of the musky diet as well

I did a little research (not much), and the white sucker looks to inhabit the area you referenced...... I like thinking outside the box, so the sucker is what i would build

[SW Lures]

JR everything helps in one way or another. Everyone's help is very important to me.

Woodie I wish that Some day I can take a few weeks and fish for these monsters that I hear about. I guess people up there would like to fish for some of our critters. Thanks for your knowledge. I'm believe I'm going to make two of the same size. I'm going to look into the White Sucker Fish. The Perch will be for clear water and the other for stained water. I'm interested in the Gizzard Shad for the fishing that I do in the spring. Now that could be a good three piece swimbait project, for freshwater Stripers.

Thanks,

Dale

[mark poulson]

Dale,

Remember that predator fish, like bass, pike, and musky, are, first and foremost, visual feeders.

If they can't see the bait it's harder for them to eat it.

I fished cold, dirty water today, and got bit on a chartreuse/white spinnerbait and chatterbait, both with chart. trailers.

Those colors were visible in the dirty water.

White is a great low light/dirty water color because it is visible.  Add some chart. to the back and/or sides, and you have a very visible bait.

When I live down in SoCal, the lakes were clear, so natural colors were important, but, even down there, chart/white spinnerbaits got bit.

And don't forget to add some flash.  It represents how a bait fish looks when it moves sideways, and, more importantly, it adds to a bait's visibility.

Edited December 13, 2015 by mark poulson

[diemai]

......and if I may add to Mark's coloration suggestions , ......natural colors are a must , there should always be a natural perch, AND a shad design accessible over here , depending on the pike freeding habits in particular waters , as perch and/or roach are the most common species , so do make up for the biggest share of pike's prey , ...but most likely one of these would always be more productive than the other in different swims .

 

But if you've got stocked trout like in many of our heavily pressured fishing club ponds and lakes , sucha pattern is worthwile giving a go as well , ...but it's not easy to fool a pike in these waters , as the fish there have already seen so many lures .

 

As due to environmental influences many of our waters over here have become clearer through past years , lurefishing has just not become easier ,......I often trust on rather unflashy color designs like copper or different brown shades , in particular in sunny weather .

 

But if I should find after some time , that all of the previously described colors do not produce any pike on a given day , I would put my bet on vibrant colored lures like a firetiger or fireperch design(yellow belly , red/orange flanks and back plus dark perch stripes) , ...even in clearer water , .......this has often saved my day on various occassions , ......pike may not be hungry or generally  feel reluctant to chase after prey for some reason , or even are suspicious about artificial baits , ....but lures in such bright , really unnatural color designs passing them by obviously do pinch their eye and they just can't help it to have their built-in bite reflex triggered by such "annoying" colors , ......they're not hungry , but still they just have to get rid of this nasty looking thing in their vicinity !

 

Greetz , Dieter

Edited December 13, 2015 by diemai

[woodieb8]

all excellent thought out points gentlemen..muskies have there own agenda..here on l. st clair you can go from hero to 0 in a day... bait size and color can vary hour to hour.i have had days where no ones catching. vhf radio crackles we got one 15 miles away . then everyones catching again. crazy humbling fish

[SW Lures]

@ Woodie, lol I bet.

@ Mark,

Now that I'm getting ready to draw the design of a prototype. I'm very interested in your thoughts about the V shape of the bait that I'm getting ready to make. I'm setting here thinking of the hydrodynamic of that look in a 8" bait with a perch/chub (sucker) look. I'm really thinking about going with your suggestion.

After reading most of last evening I found that a forage fish for Muskies in that area is a Redhorse Sucker, this is a thank you to JR. Both has a head down look (a thank you to V-Man), which will make things easier for shaping. If you have anything else that can think of Mark I would appreciate it. Then there is Dieter, nothing but respect.....eye's reading anything he writes.

He said a 8-12' runner, what about the angle and bill size? What do you suggest?

Woodie thanks for your hands on experience.

Cheers,

Dale

Edited December 13, 2015 by DaleSW

[Vodkaman]

What I do, is mark on a lateral line and carve to that as the thickest part of the side. The best way to describe the method is to show you. As you can see, I am taking my perch to the next level, planning on a 3-section lipless swimmer.

 

 

Dave

[woodieb8]

vodkaman nice photo shot.. dalesw sucker styles work. especially on fall bite here. guys are casting more here on lsc. my bait styles are lathed and molded. the 25cm is molded after the nilsmaster model. with round lip its a wobbler. the other model/lathed pounds hard with wander . that style is in 3 standard sizes 6..7..9 inch.. theres no magic lure. ,muskies will tell you what they want for dinner.

[Musky Glenn]

If the fisherman is comfortable throwing larger baits I would suggest dropping the smaller size in favor of a 6" and an 8" bait.

[topwatersniper]

I made this last wednesday for the pike in the lake i fish. Made from pine, 3 segments joined with screw eyes, 2 barrel sinkers in the head, and a feather on the tail treble. Have to say, I wasn't sure how it would turn out...but I am actually quite pleased with the action. Took it out yesterday to the pond(it was 69 degrees here in fort wayne, IN !), It falls about 9" /sec and looks and swims just like a struggling perch. took some video to analyze the performance. Anyway, been following this thread since it started and read about shape of the perch and other factors...I thought it may add to the discussion by adding a pic. Again, not the prettiest sleekest lure on this forum, but hopefully the pike like it next year!

[mark poulson]

That should do the trick!  

If you hand painted the scale pattern, you have the patience of Job.

Be sure to use a wire leader, heavy line, and a stout rod, or you'll get your heart broken when a big nasty bites off that beautiful lure you obvously worked so hard on.

[SW Lures]

Very nice V-Man! Let me know how it turns out. Your design program must be FANTASTIC! Believe it or not I try to do the same thing on grid paper, measuring each grid to get the look I want. Then send it to the computer to save and for printing the pattern over and over again. To me that's part of the fun to.

@ Woodie

I know that there's no magic bait, but the type of person that I am makes me try to give my friend the best I can do. With y'all's help I believe I got a chance. The satisfaction will be a picture of a nice fish caught with the bait(s).

Thanks,

Dale

[SW Lures]

Wow....y'all three must have been posting at about the same time that I was doing my last one or I didn't see that there was a second page now.

Very nice job Sniper! I believe for this I'm gonna stay a one piece. For my spring get away I'm gonna try a Swimmer.

@ Musky Glenn

I got ya, will do.

@ Mark

LOL Mark, you always have that last sentence "Word of Wisdom". Sniper will get a nice fish from his effort. Bet you have a good sense of humor.

Thanks and take care,

Dale