QuinnGB Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 I am very new to lure making, and recently ive been making balsa wood crankbaits. one problem that I have is that the finished lures get dents and marks on them extremely easily. I use Kilz sealant and primer as a basecoat and Flex Coat gel epoxy as a topcoat. is there other products that would help give the wood more durability and strength? maybe something that soaks into the wood? any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonister Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 Your denting problem could be from the flex coat. Since balsa is so soft and flex coat is a softer epoxy it might be denting through. You might try a different clear coat such as Devcon 2ton epoxy, or use it as a base coat. Super glue works as a great sealant as long as I use a tough epoxy such as devcon or Solarez, both thick hard coats that make it hard to dent. Just my 2 cents, someone else might have a better suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 i would say decon 2 ton is the way to go...i to carved a couple baits... im not at that point yet to seal and paint...but, have used devcon 2 ton on a few crankbaits to slow down the chipping and cracking in some baits i like to use in the rocks. and will say it works... a big difference......this will be the top coat on my carved baits as well.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 I like to apply a coat of the thin super glue as my first layer when using balsa. By using the thin super glue it soaks into the balsa a bit. It's more of a wood hardener for me than it is a sealant although it does act as a sealer as well. Once the super glue has cured and is sanded to a smooth finish I apply a layer of 30 minute epoxy. My preference being Bob Smith Slo Cure. I don't believe the Bob Smith seals any better than D2T, but on some baits I also use it as a top coat and the bubbles seem to dissipate better and it also seems to have a little more working time than D2T so I use it for both purposes. There are some folks that seal their baits exclusively with super glue, but I prefer to build my baits as bulletproof as possible so that's why I use both the super glue and epoxy to seal the wood. It's just added protection. Ben 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 I only use CA as a temporary sealer, for testing, which is usually as far as I go in the build process. The main use of CA is to fix the wood grain, so that it can be sanded smooth, even surface. If I was building a lure to last, I would use a coat of epoxy as the seal coat, perhaps reduced slightly with a few drops of alcohol. A hard epoxy like @55 minutes, continuing to part 4. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topwatersniper Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 2 words: try pine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 2 words: try pine. My all time least favorite wood to use for bass cranks and top waters....and still leaves you with having to seal as that resin always has a way of leaching its way thru the paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dtedquist Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Dave what is he dissolving in the acetate? I listened a couple of times but can't quite make out what he is saying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Ted - it is called propionate. It is raw plastic granules dissolved in acetone. If you search the word, there is a lot written about it. An alternative is to dissolve cut up pieces of plastic cups in acetone. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Too get you started. http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/topic/10125-propionate-topcoat/ http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/topic/8698-propionate-chemical-formula/ http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/topic/18608-propionate-as-sealer/ http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/topic/23658-propionate/ http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/topic/8414-propionateplastic-dipsealer-sanding-sealer-basecoat-primer-paint-topcoat/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Ted - it is called propionate. It is raw plastic granules dissolved in acetone. If you search the word, there is a lot written about it. An alternative is to dissolve cut up pieces of plastic cups in acetone. Dave Solo cups work also not as good as propionate based on my experiences. Most use virgin lacquer thinner however to dissolve. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dtedquist Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 That's what I thought he said, but if you Google proprionate you get links to a steroids. I forget to search on here. Thanks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Travis - yes, virgin lacquer would be a stronger solution for the job. Unfortunately, I only had acetone available. Even acetone is available in different strengths, but again, I have to use what I can find. Now I cannot find the pellets. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Rapala, a premier balsa bait builder, now coats their balsa baits in hard plastic to protect them. For a soft wood like balsa, the top coat is real protection. Try dipping your lures in Solarez, or a similar UV coating, twice, and letting them drip off before you cure them. A dip coat is more even, and the resin is strong and hard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonister Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) Mark, on the note of Rapala's, I use the KBS diamond topcoat on my smaller bass lures as a topcoat and sometimes as seal coat and it really gives the feel of a rapala. Just thought I'd mention that. @QuinnCB, most balsa baits will not be super strong, even with devcon or other strong epoxies. I only use balsa for bass lures simply because it is still a very soft wood no matter what you do. Pine works,but is not easy. If your just starting out I would recommend cedar. It can be very easy to work, yet be plenty strong for the bigger lures or bigger fish. Poplar is a pain and I have blisters from this last lure I made out of it. The problem I have experienced with pine is the uneven grain. Cedar is available at almost any lumber or hardware store. Good luck! Edited December 25, 2015 by jonister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuinnGB Posted December 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) I have tried to use UV resins like loon and clear cure goo (both for fly tying) but the paint always gets washed away. however, I don't use a regular airbrush, I use the Copic system which uses markers. does this get affected by the top coat? ive had problems with the paint running. should I not be using this system? also im hoping to get a real airbrush in the near future but for now this is all I got. and im thinking about using the laquer and plastic pellets, at least giving it a couple tries to see how it works. thank you for all the helpful info! Edited December 25, 2015 by QuinnGB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) I have never used the Copic system, but I follow a general rule of thumb. Any water based paints get a solvent based or epoxy top coat. Any solvent based paints get an epoxy top coat, or a really good barrier coat before I top coat with Solarez. I always do a test on a piece of scrape first, though. I've found there are, often times, ingredients in stuff that don't show on the label, but that react with paints. Solarez doesn't bother water based paints, but it can make solvent based sharpies run, so I typically shoot a coat of Createx Clear Gloss over the sharpie stuff before I top coat. with Solarez (dipped). Edited December 25, 2015 by mark poulson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goose77 Posted December 26, 2015 Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 Hey Quinn, the Copic system came up recently as a topic...or as part of a recent thread. This system has been very popular in fly tying circles [i'm a fly tier and bug builder]. It is tough to topcoat with anything but epoxy, and the ink still smears with some epoxies. Bob Smith 30 minute has been good though. Mark recently pointed out [and again in his above note] that the smearing of inks can be avoided with a coat of Createx Clear Gloss over the ink before the final topcoat...I plan to try this, and appreciate his tip. Having said all this, in the end I believe you'll be a happier camper when you can use an airbrush...it made a big positive difference in the quality of my work. Merry Christmas. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonister Posted December 26, 2015 Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 I have a copic system for flies and such and have tried it on lures with not so great results. It ran pretty bad, and bled. I was on their site and for 12 pens it was 99$, which for 24 pens, you can get a decent air brush and at least your primary colors. It is nice to have though as it doesn't smell or put bad stuff in the air, (I think) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuinnGB Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 I have a copic system for flies and such and have tried it on lures with not so great results. It ran pretty bad, and bled. I was on their site and for 12 pens it was 99$, which for 24 pens, you can get a decent air brush and at least your primary colors. It is nice to have though as it doesn't smell or put bad stuff in the air, (I think) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted December 26, 2015 Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 Like RayburnGuy, I undercoat balsa with a slow cure glue epoxy like Devcon Two Ton, sand it lightly to remove its gloss, paint the lure, then topcoat with the same stuff. Solarez uv cured polyester resin is another good undercoating because it is similar to epoxy in performance and quick to use - but I don't use it for a topcoat because of its tendency to develop a white wax blush. Using epoxy is a "twofer" - one product that works for both undercoating and topcoating and performs well in both roles, especially on balsa. Keeps things simple. Using superglue works well to harden balsa but frankly, I don't like the mess or the added expense. It ain't cheap. I've used propionate pellets on balsa and it also works OK. It's propionate cellulose and I dissolved it in acetone. There was a little flurry of using plastic cups instead of the propionate here on TU a few years ago. Some guys thought it worked OK. Many couldn't get the plastic cups to dissolve. Some reported that the coating cracked on the lure after drying. I think Rapala used propionate once upon a time. They've undoubtedly moved on to a better industrial process. If you want to try it, be sure the prop solution is very thin and use 5-10 dips in the stuff to build up a decent coating thickness. Frankly, I think there are less labor intensive ways to get an undercoating that works at least as well (e.g., epoxy). Airbrushes: Most of them work just fine. My favorite is the Iwata Revolution series, which are value priced and bullet proof compared to other high end airbrush models. I use a Revolution B brush 95% of the time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuinnGB Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 thanks bob for the advice and im going to try a little bit of each technique to see which one I like. as for the airbrush, ill be sure to check it out, might not be a bad idea to invest in one. thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted December 27, 2015 Report Share Posted December 27, 2015 thanks bob for the advice and im going to try a little bit of each technique to see which one I like. as for the airbrush, ill be sure to check it out, might not be a bad idea to invest in one. thanks again! If you have a Hobby Lobby near you print out their 40% off coupon and check out what they have in the Iwata line of airbrushes. You won't go wrong with an Iwata. Ben 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
