JLS Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 I know this has been discussed but my questions go a little deeper. We are looking into ball bearing swivels for our premium line of spinnerbaits and it has been recommended by a few pros that we use Sampo. The problem is that Sampo wants roughly $460 per thousand with 1 ring and for some reason will not remove excise tax. With them being an imported swivel, is the excise tax that they will not remove some sort of import tax? The other option that we are looking at is the large eye Worth with no rings and we are curious if anyone has any experience with these? Does the large eye move with ease on the looped wire without a ring? Not really needing any info about swivels with 2 rings as I need to install the lower ring myself for my application. Thanks! Johnny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalljaw Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 I use only Worth swivels but I don't have experience with the large eye model. When I order swivels from Worth I buy 1000 swivels and 2000 split rings and attach them myself, this saves me over $100. The hole in the regular size 2 Worth ball bearing swivel is .035" I.D. so it may not be large enough for your situation but I have complete faith that the large eye swivel will be premium quality as well. Just to clear the slate, I use to use Sampo as I won't compromise on my spinnerbaits and I found that the Worth swivel is as good as the Sampo, if not better and for a better price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21xdc Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 I have been building SP for 25+ years and I prefer the worth swivels with the split rings attached. I use bigger wire on some spinnerbaits and have not tried the new swivel with a large eye, Nor do I have any intension too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLS Posted February 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 Thanks for the replies! Think I'll go with Worth and try installing the large eye on the wire. The Sampo sales rep is about to drive me crazy anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLS Posted February 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 Just found out that Worth has not had the large eye swivel in stock for a couple of months and are not sure when they will have that machine fixed. I'd really like to keep as much of my baits American made as possible and not have to add 2 rings but Sampo prices are not that far off of Worths when you contact the right people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalljaw Posted February 4, 2016 Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 What diameter wire are you using? The regular size 2 ball bearing swivel from Worth can take a .035" diameter wire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLS Posted February 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2016 The spinnerbait that I am most concerned about performance on is an .035 wire. If I had the large eye option, I'd probably go without a ring to attach the assembly to the wire but with all the movement I'm expecting the swivel to have, I'll have to install a ring with the smaller holes in the swivel. Contacted a couple of more pros and they have all said to go with Sampo so that's the way I went. Surprising part is that Sampo only cost 3 cents more for orders under 5000 pieces and if you order more than that, Sampo ends up cheaper than Worth at the discount levels. Sampo does allow manufactures to order direct and has a $100 minimum. Now if I can just find a pro to throw my bait at the classic. Got a couple on the hook, just need to reel them in......... wish me luck!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLS Posted February 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2016 Why didn't someone just come out and tell me that all ball bearing swivels are made by the same company. I just paid an extra 3 cents per swivel for a Sampo sticker, guess if it helps me sell bait the sticker will be with the coin LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Why didn't someone just come out and tell me that all ball bearing swivels are made by the same company. I just paid an extra 3 cents per swivel for a Sampo sticker, guess if it helps me sell bait the sticker will be with the coin LOL Are they? So your saying worth and sampo are the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLS Posted February 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Yes, The only difference is the way that they are marketed and the price point at lower quantities. If you can afford to purchase enough of them (10,000), even the price is the same. Sampo does allow you to place a blanket order to reach the quantity discount and have them delivered and paid for in lower quantities but you have to end up buying 10,000 in a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalljaw Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 I know Sampo and Worth are both American made and both have very similar performance but I didn't think Worth made the swivels for Sampo. I can get 1000 Worth swivels and 2000 rings and put them together myself and with the shipping it cost $308.31 to my door, I can't buy Sampo swivels in a 1000 count for anywhere close to that as I have to have at least 1 ring. How accurate is this information? I wouldn't be surprised being how well the Worth perform as they are almost identical to the Sampo. I'm going to send some emails out and do a little research and I'll let you know what I hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLS Posted February 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 The info that I have on the swivels being the same, came from a couple of large manufacturers in the fishing industry but I honestly have no proff that the info I received is accurate, just had no reason to doubt it. The Sampo distributor that I, mistakenly, first talked to had claimed that the Sampo swivels were imported so the "made in America" one of shocks me. The price comparison that I gave is based on no rings and Sampo might put a higher value on their rings IDK. I'll be real interested in what you learn as it might help me have a better understanding f who I can trust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalljaw Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Sampo swivels are not made by Worth company, they are made in New York State. Worth and Sampo are the only 2 ball bearing swivels made in America and I'd love to know where you were quoted your price per thousand and the minimum purchase. I can't purchase them with just 1 ring and my best price per $1000 is over $800. I'm sure if I spent more time looking I'd find a better price but I do have a word of advise, if the person who quoted you the price also was the same who told you they were imported, I wouldn't buy them from him. When I started using Worth swivels I would get small samples from different sources of imported ball bearing swivels, for 5 years I tried Spro, Mustad, Gamakatsu along with the deluxe Cabelas and Bass Pro shops XPS brand and every other swivel I could find. In that 5 year span I tried exactly 28 different imported ball bearing swivels, I still have to paper that I listed the results of the spinnerbaits I made with each one, some worked without fail like the ones mentioned, but if I was using a small size 3.5 willow blade I'd have to reel the thing in twice as fast otherwise the blade wouldn't spin and that was a great test to see how well they would perform. A lot of the imported ones I tried from various ebay stores and such would usually fail with in a day or so of using the swivel, but I would start with the 1/4oz bait with a single 3.4 willow and then try it on a 1/2oz single Colorado in a size 5 and sometimes a 6 and that is where the failures would happen most of the time and what would happen is the blade would just stop spinning and it would be seized up. I have since stopped looking for other swivels but I have tried out fishing my Worth side by side against Sampo just last year and just as true today as it was all those years ago, if you didn't know which was which, you'd swear they were the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21xdc Posted February 7, 2016 Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Trust smalljaw... I have found the same exact thing... Worth is your best choice and not even near the sampo price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLS Posted February 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 Sorry guys, I sure didn't mean to push any buttons or come off as argumentative! I have been making lures for 30+ years but just started manufacturing a year ago. It was my regions Sampo distributed that told me they were imported. I am on the road now so I'm not really interested in looking that up. I'm in north Missouri if you really need to know which distributor said that. The info that I received from the major manufacturers claimed that all ball bearing swivels were manufactured by "1" company and distributed by several; Worth,Sampo,Pline,Bass Pro, Hi Seas, ect., ect. I have no clue as to whether I was hoodwinked on that one or not....and whether I was or not really doesn't matter to me. Sure if they lied, I will not trust anything else they say but it still has no bearing on my future happiness. The prices and minimums that I quoted on Sampo swivels came direct from Sampo as I was ordering 3000 Sampo swivels. The Swivels that I purchased were the size 2 without rings as the swivels with 1 ring had them on the wrong end for me. With the blade arrangement that I install on my top shelf baits, I'd stretch any rings that are already Installed. If you are a manufacturer of lures, you need to contact Sampo for the best pricing. They told me that none of their distributors are supposed to try to sell anything to you, they are supposed to send you to Sampo to purchase direct I am not sure if you have to have your 637 form to purchase from them or not, I do have mine. Most importantly for me is the fact that pro fishermen are only interested in purchasing my newly released bait "after I have switched to Sampo swivels". If a 3 cent difference in swivel price (at the lower quantities) is all it takes for some elite series anglers to buy my bait by the dozen..... That's 3 cents that I'm willing to spend all day long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21xdc Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 I agree that Sampo is the best.... I didn't see the price difference in quality personally... I never tried to sell to the pros though.... Good Luck in your venture... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLS Posted February 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 Thanks so much! I secured a deal on my way to the last expo on Friday morning and have an angler in the classic with my logo on his jersey and a bunch of my spinnerbaits/buzzbaits in his boat. Kind of a long shot when having to find an angler with no sponsorship from a spinnerbait manufacturer but that's a gamble worth taking. We are definitely excited about the opportunity! I do have a couple other pros with them in their boat at the classic (They had their own Sampo swivels) but they will never be allowed to claim that my lures helped them in any way due to sponsorship obligations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21xdc Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 Years ago, I made spinnerbaits for Don Iovino. I was doing a show and he was doing seminars. He bought some of my 1 1/8 oz spinnerbaits for the deep clear lakes in California. I have sold to other pros, Just never sponsored them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLS Posted February 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 That's awesome! I have always enjoyed the stories or pictures of fish caught on the few lures that I have sold locally but there is something special in knowing that some of the best fisherman are excited about what you do. We just released this bait 2 weeks ago and it has blown up on us. We have 2 more in the classic field waiting on us to get Sampo swivels but we're thinking that they will be lost in the mail till after the classic....... give our guy the best chance we can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalljaw Posted February 8, 2016 Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 I hope all goes well with your business and everything works out but there are some things you need to do. The first is to dump the distributor that told you the Sampo bearings are imported, I say that because, as I've said before, I've tried 28 different brands and a lot of the imported jobs I tried I was told that they were made by the same manufacturing plant with the same materials as Sampo, I've learned that isn't even close to true. Worth swivels and blades, which is all I use, are made in Wisconsin and I buy direct from them, Sampo is made in New York, Barneveld to be exact. I'd probably be using Sampo swivels if they quoted me a 3000 minimum order with the price you got with 1 ring, but when I inquired about bulk pricing I was told there was a price break at 5000 minimum and they would tack on a custom order charge on top of it as they weren't available to be purchased without both rings, I had to have 2 rings, split or solid or a snap. Now that was a long time ago and it seems they have changed their policy a bit but just be wary of your distributor because you got some bad information and every time I've been told that, the product I got wasn't worth the time it took to get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLS Posted February 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2016 Thanks for the info! I did not purchase from a distributor but my regional distributor did tell me they were imported. Being made in America is very important to me as I try to use as many American made products as possible. It was also the distributor that claimed that Sampo's item # 2A was swivel and 1 ring and that is not the case as Sampo only sell with both rings or without any rings. If you got your price quote from a distributor you were given the distributors inflated price. Check with Sampo directly for the best price. There was no 3000 minimum order, that is the number of swivels without rings that I purchased and the minimum order that Sampo requires to buy direct from them is $100. There discount levels start at 1000 pieces and for larger discounts you need to order 5,000 or 10,000 pieces. You can place a blanket order with Sampo to reach their higher discount levels and receive/pay for smaller shipments, as you receive them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
