Angle Vertex?

[rufthumbs]

I am curious because I just don't know better...where is the vertex of the lips angle located? In other words does everybody measure the angle of their lip from a "given" location?(i.e. the intersection of the Vertical & Horizontal Center Lines)

Is this process of determining an accurate measurement part of an "individuals build formula" or is there a common way of measuring a lips angle which I am just overthinking and not understanding....

 

I have been trying various methods on how I measure my lip and ballast angle as I "find my way" to a geometric process that will build consistent plugs that swim and react the way I want them to...I understand math pretty descent but so far  my eyes and ability to duplicate something similar to what I see has proven to be my biggest asset in building my plugs...I have refused to split open any of my "good plugs" that I have, to compare them to how I am building mine but I know I am getting closer to putting all the pieces together in understanding the geometry involved....I also understand that in time once I master the many processes of building a plug (Lordy I have done some dumb things that screw up a lot of invested time) there stands a good chance I will find enlightenment regarding this whole  process that I am in relentless pursuit of...

 

I know some of you may have been mentored by an old timer whose eyes can just produce the necessary geometry involved or heck some of you can probably even eyeball it yourself, but can one of you boys who know about the vertex of the lip angle share this with me if it isn't taboo to do so?   

 

Rest assured I wont be butt hurt if its something that must be learned on my own because I am beginning to understand the time invested in building a good handmade plug...I think being a little hard headed will help me as well in figuring it out too...LOL

I dang sure wouldn't lay out all the knowledge I acquired through hard work and patience on a silver platter on public forum for some  fella to come along and do nothing for...so in that regard I feel like I get it because the level of understanding I have acquired so far has come from reading, studying plugs(in and out of the water) for countless hours over the last few years and TOO many hours tinkering with a big batch of balsa a buddy gave me a couple years back...

 

Ira

[JRammit]

I measure aginst an imaginary line between the nose and tail.... That line gets cloudy on baits with a curved tail though

[Vodkaman]

I feel your pain. I wanted this question answered in my early days, but could find nothing.

 

There are no wrong answers to this question and I think most builders would build what looks right, as it is one of those 'feel' things.

 

But, I know you want numbers, so here is my starting point:

 

Draw a line nose to tail.

Mark a dot 15% of the length back from the nose.

Draw the slot from this dot at what ever angle you want.

 

Draw it first and if it doesn't look right, change the numbers.

 

Look through the lipped cranks in the gallery, hold a rule up to the screen and work out what % they used for interest and report back. My guess would be 15% to 20%.

 

Dave

[gliders]

When I start to design a new lure, be it glider, crank or whatever, first thing I do is start with a straight line then draw shape.Use this line to mark off ballast , lip angle etc.use this as template or copy onto whatever your using as template.

[Vodkaman]

Gliders - I do exactly the same.

 

I start off with an idea of what I want the bait to do, how deep to swim, action width, hunting yes or no, how big, to mimic what, etc.

 

I then mark out the lip, hooks and ballast locations.

 

Then I outline the bait species around the hardware and tweak it all to fit.

 

Produce some templates and start cutting.

 

Dave

[rufthumbs]

thanks for the ideas..... I am going to try them as I think your ideas will make a difference in what I do...I appreciate it a lot...sometimes a guy just needs a little kick in the rear to knock him forward a little when he gets a little stuck....To be honest I have no desire to reinvent the wheel nor am I on a quest to develop the something that has never been seen, but rather an understanding of a process that doesn't include a series of WAG's ...

[Vodkaman]

You are right. Just gotta get stuck in and see what happens. We can help you from there.

 

Dave

[mark poulson]

Here's my guideline.

The lip is there to catch the water, and both to give the bait a wiggle and to help it dive to a specific depth.

Wake baits, and shallow runner sit level in the water at rest, so they need the most angle for their lips, to catch the water when the retrieve is begun.

My wake baits have an 80+- degree angle off the centerline of the bait, as drawn from the front hook hanger to the rear hook hanger.

My 1.5 baits have a 35-40 degree angle.

If I want a bait to run deeper, I add more ballast at the belly hanger, and it hangs down more at rest, and the angle of the lip decreases, so it will still catch water and not just blow out.  So I use about a 20 degree angle.

And my deep divers hang most nose down at rest, so I put the lip in more or less parallel with center line, at 0 degrees.

Every bait design will require some adjustments, but that is my starting point.

If you know what kind of bait you want to make, use a similar commercial bait as a stating point, and expand from there.

[BobP]

The effective lip angle is dependent on how your bait sits in the water and body's attitude while it is swimming, so I don't think there's a simple solution unless you build a bait to swim perfectly horizontal, which is a rarity.    

[rufthumbs]

Thanks for the input and I understand what y'all are saying....I just didn't know if there was a given location for the angles vertex from which you measure a lips angle on a plug...for the longest time I kept trying to create some kind of relationship with where my harness dropped from the H center line and the angle of my bill....I couldn't quite figure out how the bill angle was measured because depending on where the vertex of the angle is on the H center it will change the measure of the angle of the bill... sort of what Vman indicated in the "15%" mark on the X axis that appeared to be a generalized location from which to measure.....my plan is to create my own location to measure my bill angle since there doesn appear to be a specific location on the H center line that is followed...I will prob review the few templates I've made to make the math a little easier and rethink those measurements some so I can use a standard location like 1/5 of the plugs length behind the pull point or something of that nature build that geometric relationship from there.

The templates I've made are intended to build a round bodied squarebill plug similar to a Jim Bagley plug.

[mark poulson]

Before you spend a lot of time trying to figure out a formula on paper, take a look at the baits that are commercially available.

I think you'll see there is a wide variation in them, because they are all shaped and weighted differently.

Pick out some that are designed to dive and swim like you want yours to, and see what they all have in common.  There is no shame in learning from their successes.  Everything I know about lure making I learned here on TU, from members who shared.

 

If you want to flatten your forehead from pounding your head into the wall, look up vortex in the hard baits search feature, and see all the work that Vodkaman (Dave) has done.

Good luck.

[rufthumbs]

Ha! from jar head to flat head...lol

I sat out her piddling for a few hours thinking that I just need to roll with my process then I saw your post Mark and it hit home that I just need to keep building and stop figuring...I sat here and thought every time I build one and test it I learn something new so I'm just gonna keep building. Lol

[Vodkaman]

Figuring stuff out can be good, it certainly isn't wrong. But many will tell you that it just isn't necessary.

Figuring stuff out is what I do, what I enjoy, but I will be the first to admit that the REAL knowledge is experience.

Dave

[SW Lures]

I do basically what these makers of baits do. I look at a baits design and think, what do I want it to do. Is it going to be a deep diver (shad maybe) or is it going to be a 4-8' runner. Angle is a change from one to another. Ballast must be considered also.

As Bobp stated the angle of the lure setting in the water with a long wide lip just setting downward from the X line. This bait has just a slight rise or fall "May" be a deep diver. I have design one, it's a shovel.

This is my take to this point, body design, bill angle and ballast and ballast position will determine what the lure is going to do. Being hand shaped, each are never exactly the same. But yes I keep information from each bait that is successful. Using the X,Y lines.

And an imagination and a what if way of thinking. With this type of thinking, be prepared for some failures.

Dale

[RayburnGuy]

Something that has not been mentioned is how the tow eye location effects the bait. You can alter the action and running depth by your choice of eye location all on the exact same body and lip. As a general rule the closer to the body the tow eye is the more aggressive the action is and the shallower it runs. Placing it out farther on the lip will usually tone down the action and make the bait run deeper. Of course there are variables to this "general rule". Placing the tow eye too close to the nose on a large lip will cause it to blow out. Placing the tow eye too close to the leading edge of the lip and the bait will have very little, if any, action at all and it won't dive properly, if at all.

 

I was quite surprised recently by how different the actions were on two baits that were as close to exact copies as I could build them. Same body style and shape, shape lip size and shape, same ballast size and shape, etc. After getting back home I started inspecting the baits to see what could have caused such a difference in how these lures swam. The only difference that I could find was that one tow eye was 1/32 of an inch closer to the nose of the bait. The bait with the tow eye closer to the nose had a much more pronounced "thump" to it than the other bait.

 

If you continue to build lures over a period of time it will amaze you at how a subtle change can dramatically alter a lure. Lip angle is a good place to start, but there is much more to it than that.

 

good luck,

 

Ben

[Vodkaman]

Great post Ben, summed it all up very nicely.

Dave

[RayburnGuy]

Thanks Dave. There are a few things you guys have been trying to teach me in the last 5 1/2 years that finally soaked in.

 

Ben

[SW Lures]

You are right as normal Ray. As much as we have talked about the tow line position, I can't believe I forgot. Bravo! Sometimes making a post feels wrong when I know that these people who have help me understand this process, are reading what I post. I guess I'm doing ok. Moving on:

I forgot something else that I do, but it could be put into ballast I guess. I think of them as a moving ballast. I use hooks sizes (weight) to help with balance with either way. Balanced, nose down or tail down.

To be honest tho, I try not to do it. But when needed, it's a nice trick.

I think what I have been trying to say is, what you have stated Ray, "there is so much more to it".

Dale

Edited March 7, 2016 by DaleSW

[RayburnGuy]

Thanks Dale. The main reason for my post was to hopefully explain to folks that they shouldn't get too locked in on one single aspect of what makes a bait act the way it does. I can sometimes get so locked in on a single train of thought that the glaringly obvious can become lost in the shadows. There is a lot that goes into making a bait act the way it does, but there's no need to let it become overwhelming. We just need to recognize these things and incorporate them into our builds. And most important of all is to have fun doing it.

 

If your wanting to use a certain size hook on your baits, but still play around with ballast on a finished lure, you need to invest in some lead wire like that used by fly fisherman. It will allow you to use varying amounts of wire at any hook location to alter the weight distribution on your bait. When you get it just right you can unwrap the wire from the hook and then weigh it. This will allow you to make slight modifications on your next build to get it perfect. The lead wire is also handy if you fish suspending lures. You can make adjustments in the amount of wire used for when water temps change.

 

Ben

[rufthumbs]

Thanks for the input guys....I chose a location to measure the lip angle that I'm going to move forward with in attempt to "control" one of the many variables involved in achieving how I want it to swim(very similar to Daves 15% because i was able to make sure I'm "square" at another point in my layout)

My line tie I've chosen a spot for as well also hoping to "control" another variable.

Next on my list is choosing a ballast weight that I can consistently use for my harness as I begin to adjust its location to a desirable position. So far I've been drilling out various "mojo" & "egg" style weights with different diameters to use as a belly weight. This method of drilling is pretty inconsistent especially when you start cutting on them to obtain different amounts of weight. When I started experimenting with the "egg" style weights I began to wonder if belly weights were a complete cylinder shape as they continue into the plug or if the partly exposed cylinder looking weight changed from a cylinder shape to a different shape of sorts (i.e. Sphere)as they proceeded into the plug ....do y'all mostly use a cylinder shaped ballast weight(mojo style) or do y'all toy with changing its form as it enters the belly?

[Vodkaman]

I pour my own cylinder lead ballast weights: Two slabs of wood, bolted or pinned together for location, usually G-clamped for speed and ease. If I want a different diameter, I just drill a new hole(s), simply drill down the crack. The same drill is used to drill the body, so the ballast fits perfectly every time.

 

I am usually going for a specific gram weight, so I trim to achieve a weight rather than pouring an exact size.

 

You could make a Bondo mold for pouring exact size and shape. You will get plenty of pours from a Bondo mold, but keep your masters for making more molds as required. If you are organized, it is a fairly painless process.

 

Dave

Edited March 8, 2016 by Vodkaman

[SW Lures]

I make some of my lead ballast like Dave. But the hanger I buy with grams of lead attached. The ones I make is just for additional ballast.

I stated earlier that I use the XY lines, which I do. I also use the nose of the bait for a lot of my measurements.

With my lures being shaped by hand, each one can't be done exactly the same as the others. That's what makes it interesting. I have read what ever these people have wrote and taken what I have learnt for myself. I can get close enough.

Seems like you understand the direction you want to head in, pretty well. I'll leave you with this that Dave has wrote before, any changes in the design, creates changes in the way the lure reacts (no quote). I have taken this to heart and this becomes the "what if factor" for me.

That's what makes it fun.

Take Care,

Dale

[mark poulson]

I bought both 3/16" and 1/4" lead wire to use for ballast.  I drill the same size hole in the lure's belly, and add as much wire as I need for ballast.

A drop or two of super glue holds it in just fine.

[RayburnGuy]

You can buy solid lead wire at McMaster-Carr in varying diameters. Just cut it into whatever length necessary to achieve the amount of ballast you want.

 

You can also purchase belly weights from LPO with the hook hanger poured into them. They are available in weights from 2 to 6 grams. This is what I use on most of my bass sized cranks.

 

Ben