Chuck Young Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 Some information gleaned from “waterbirds_sinkers” pdf. A summary of the USGS survey done between 1995-1999 and the basis for the ban on lead sinkers and jigheads less than 1/2 oz in the state of NH. This is one of the tables in the report and some of my observations on the numbers contained therein. This should lead to some vigorous discussion! Table 2 Species No. with ingested lead weights Frequency (%) Common Loon (tested sick or dead – 65%) FROM # tested # w/ lead % w/lead Rehabilitation centers 156 6 3.8 Apparently healthy 109 5 4.6 Found dead in field 48 0 0 Total 313 11 3.5 Brown Pelican (tested sick or dead – 99%) FROM # tested # w/ lead % w/lead Rehabilitation centers 308 10 3.2 Apparently healthy 4 0 0 Found dead in field 53 0 0 Total 365 10 2.7 Double-crested Cormorant (tested sick or dead - 90%) FROM # tested # w/ lead % w/lead Rehabilitation centers 68 0 0 Apparently healthy 8 0 0 Found dead in field 5 1 20 Total 81 1 1.2 Black-crowned Night Heron (tested sick or dead – 91%) FROM # tested # w/ lead % w/lead Rehabilitation centers 0 N/Aa N/A Apparently healthy 1 0 0 Found dead in field 10 1 10 Total 11 1 9.1 84% of birds tested were sick or dead. 2.9% had a lead item in digestive tract. Some evidence in report that less than ½ actually have increased lead levels. 23 out of 2240 (about 1%) water birds tested had lead items in their digestive tract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted May 20, 2016 Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 The numbers may well seem low to you, but 1% is enough to justify the ban. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Hahn Posted May 20, 2016 Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 Another example of government bureaucrats "finding" a "serious" problem to which they can apply a "solution," when no problem actually exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalljaw Posted May 20, 2016 Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 What bothers me is when I asked my congressman how many birds had lead jigs and weights in them??? I did not get an answer, most of the lead the birds consume are from shotgun shells, yeah, I know steel shot is to be used for water fowl but I know guys that "don't care" and use what they want. A local conservation group had a dive planned at one of the state park lakes in my area about 12 or 15 years ago, they wanted to make people aware of how bad the lake was becoming due to lead so that got divers to go retrieve all the snagged lead jigs and whatever other bad material they could find. Well after 80 divers showed up on a 211 acre lake they hauled up 7 jigs, and a small bag full of line, but the best was the jigs they pulled up, they were degraded to the point if you stepped on one with your bare feet, the hook would have crumbled rather that stick in you. There were several bass clubs that were there to watch this as we worried it would lead to a lead ban, but if anything it lead to the fact we over exaggerate sometimes but not the group that was there, the explanation given for the lack of any significant lead was that it was already eaten by birds. And that leads me to this, if the powers that be want to change something, proof and evidence be dammed, if there is none they will fabricate it and anything contrary to that will be buried. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadman Posted May 20, 2016 Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 This topic naturally comes up quite often in forums like this. This is my take on it and after that I don't want to make this into a political thing. I am not saying that lead is safe, and we all know the hazards. But when I was a kid there were more lead products around then there are now. I lived in Chicago, and our apt. building was built in the 1940's which had lead water pipes. Well I'm still alive today with really low lead traces that don't register. Also, I didn't peel paint off of walls and eat them. My mom was very vigilant about always watching me and my sister to see what we were up to when we were kids. So I don't know why this is a problem now. With all the government rules and regs, it is just one more thing that apparently the government sticks there nose in to. I understand monitoring products, but once that starts, then everything else follows and pretty soon everything will be banned because someone will find lead in everything instead of being actually informed. When we have bills coming around to stop a ban on lead in fishing, I sign all of them for whichever state, because I think the whole concept is just plain stupid. People complain now that lead jigs are too expensive, let's say $3.50-$4.00 for a good quality jig, there are some stores that charge more. What are you going to do if they ban lead and go to non- lead products? Is everyone going to pay $7.00 - $8.00 for a jig? If this happens it will really hurt the fishing industry and all the custom pourers will close shop because of the cost. Also lead is used in crankbaits as a ballast. So if you ban it what are we as fisherman going to do? Everyone is aware of the dangers of lead, shouldn't everyone just use some common sense and not have to have the government tell you how to live your life and what to do. It will be interesting to see what happens in several years. This is just my opinion, you have the right not to agree.. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted May 20, 2016 Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 (edited) There always seems to be a fringe group that's well organized and well funded with an agenda, and a politician willing to craft legislation to satisfy their agenda, in exchange for campaign money. It is a terrible commentary on how far politics, and the lobby money behind it, has made us all unable to trust anything a politician says. Edited May 20, 2016 by mark poulson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Young Posted May 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 (edited) What bothers me is when I asked my congressman how many birds had lead jigs and weights in them??? I did not get an answer, most of the lead the birds consume are from shotgun shells, yeah, I know steel shot is to be used for water fowl but I know guys that "don't care" and use what they want. A local conservation group had a dive planned at one of the state park lakes in my area about 12 or 15 years ago, they wanted to make people aware of how bad the lake was becoming due to lead so that got divers to go retrieve all the snagged lead jigs and whatever other bad material they could find. Well after 80 divers showed up on a 211 acre lake they hauled up 7 jigs, and a small bag full of line, but the best was the jigs they pulled up, they were degraded to the point if you stepped on one with your bare feet, the hook would have crumbled rather that stick in you. There were several bass clubs that were there to watch this as we worried it would lead to a lead ban, but if anything it lead to the fact we over exaggerate sometimes but not the group that was there, the explanation given for the lack of any significant lead was that it was already eaten by birds. And that leads me to this, if the powers that be want to change something, proof and evidence be dammed, if there is none they will fabricate it and anything contrary to that will be buried. Here is another table from PDF waterbirds_sinkers pdf I had to reconfigure the data to get it to post Table 2. Characteristics of ingested lead fishing weights and tissue lead concentrations in four species of waterbirds, 1995-1999. NOTE: some birds have multiple objects, indicated by the state being listed once with additional rows of data following. Common Loon lead in ppm state Type (mm) (g) Liver Blood CA) unknown 5x8 1.1 14.7 FL) split shot 6×8 1.8 split shot 7×7 1.8 16.9 CA unknown 5×8 1.1 14.7 FL split shot 6×8 1.8 split shot 7×7 1.8 16.9 ME split shot 8×9 2.9 8.03 ME jig head 0.30 NC jig head 8×25 4.2 16.6 4.24 NC unknown 5×8 0.6 12.8 6.02 NC pyramid sinker 22×39 78.2 16.9 NH jig head NH jig head 0.40 WI split shot 0.97 WI split shot 0.28 Brown Pelican FL egg sinker 13×16 16.2 0.35 FL jig head 10×27 6.4 1.14 FL bell sinker 10×32 12.8 1.32 split shot 7×7 1.5 split shot 6× 7 1.5 FL bell sinker 7 × 11 3.3 0.14 FL egg sinker 14 × 16 15.0 0.82 FL egg sinker 9 × 13 5.6 13.9 FL egg sinker 0.04 FL egg sinker 19 × 25 48.1 0.06 FL egg sinker 13 × 17 14.9 1.45 FL jig head 11 × 28 6.2 Double-crested Cormorant FL bell sinker 12 × 39 21.1 Black-crowned Night Heron CA jig head 14 × 32 15.1 26.0 Edited May 20, 2016 by Chuck Young Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasilofchrisn Posted May 20, 2016 Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 There was a very good reason to ban lead for waterfowl hunting. People used to shoot duck in the same small ponds and river sloughs for generations. Sometimes from the exact same blinds or ones built in the same spots The lead did build up and in areas where the puddle ducks like to feed. The small lead shot was easily ingested and stuck in their gizzards causing lead issues in the birds. But we do not have the same issues as fishermen. We try not to loose our jigs and sinkers. They are also bigger and not necessarily something birds will easily ingest. The biggest thing that upsets me is when people want to use the lead ban for waterfowl as a reason to ban lead based jigs and sinkers When there really is no comparisons. Also just because lead shot is banned for waterfowl hunting doesn't mean there isn't lead shot getting into our waterways from target shooters or others who shoot at or into our waterways for other purposes. Things like shooting clay pigeons over a lake or pond for example. And shooting clays often means smaller shot than commonly used for water fowl hunting. The smaller the shot the more easily it is ingested by the birds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted May 20, 2016 Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 shouldn't everyone just use some common sense and not have to have the government tell you how to live your life and what to do. Unfortunately common sense is becoming less and less common these days. Ben 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted May 20, 2016 Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 Unfortunately common sense is becoming less and less common these days. Ben I think that, as people have become more distant from the land that feeds them by living in big cities, they have lost the basic understanding of the environment, of cause and effect, and they wind up with opinions that are based on what's convenient, not what's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Young Posted May 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 The NH fish and game people are publishing that 40% of loon deaths are caused by lead sinkers and jigs. Nothing in these usgs surveys indicates anything like that. How do you go from 1% or 3.5% to 40%? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Young Posted May 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 Loons nest near the shore and away from humans. So If they really want to protect loons they should donate their waterfront property and buy up as much as they can from others to create nesting habitat. If loons can't find nesting habitat, they kill another loon to get theirs. Another good suggestion is to build and maintain Artificial Nesting Platforms. These have to be removed, repaired and replaced yearly or the nest will fail. Clean water is vital for loons, so lawn fertilizers and pesticides should not be used around lakes and watersheds. The following suggestions come from: https://www.northland.edu/sustain/soei/loonwatch/protect-loons/ Loons need healthy aquatic ecosystems with good water quality, abundant prey, irregular shaped shorelines or islands with native vegetation, and nursery habitat with little to no human disturbance. Practice Good Loon Etiquette · Watch loons from at least 200 feet away. Get a powerful lens for your camera, use binoculars or a spotting scope, and never explore a loon nest site. Close encounters can be deadly for swimming and nesting loons. · Avoid exploring or camping on islands before July 15 of each year. Loons prefer islands for nesting. Disturbance can cause a loon to abandon its nest. · Dispose of household garbage at a collection site. Garbage draws raccoons, foxes, gulls, and eagles, which prey on loon eggs. Trash can also ensnare wildlife, including loons. · Be an ethical angler. Never fish or cast near loon nests or swimming loons, properly dispose of extra bait and trash, and pick up monofilament line. · Keep dogs and cats away from loons and nests. Pets disturb nesting loons and can destroy loon eggs. · Be a responsible boater. Never chase loons or run motorboats or personal watercraft over areas where loons have been seen. Loons and loon chicks have died from being hit by boats and propellers. Boat wakes and waves may also wash eggs off of nests. · Practice and teach wildlife stewardship…always! Protect and Restore Loon Habitat · Protect native vegetation on all shores. Loons nest on natural shorelines and use natural materials to build their nests. Native vegetation also protects water quality by slowing and absorbing runoff materials from entering the lake. · Use only phosphorus-free fertilizers on shorelands, and only if needed. Fertilizer that runs off into lakes increases aquatic plant growth, making it difficult for loons to swim and find food. · Protect loons from your pets. Keep dogs and cats away from loons and nests. Pets disturb nesting loons and can destroy loon eggs. And please clean up your pet’s waste—pet waste can also contribute unwanted nutrients and bacteria to the water. · Pollutants from fertilizers, pesticides, streets, and rooftops are contaminating your lakes and rivers. If heavy rains collect in pools and puddles in your yard, the easiest way to help water infiltrate into the ground rather than run off into storm sewers is by creating a rain garden and using rain barrels to collect rain water from your roof gutters. · Loons need good water quality, healthy lake habitats and ecosystems to survive and thrive. Local government agencies do not have the capacity or resources to monitor the water quality on all Wisconsin lakes; therefore, volunteer monitoring is a vital component to determining the water quality of our state’s lakes and rivers. Learn about Wisconsin’s volunteer water quality monitoring. · Make sure your septic system is functioning properly. When septic systems don’t work properly, they pose serious risks to human, animal, and environmental health by releasing contaminants, including harmful bacteria and chemical pollutants, into the groundwater and into surface water—lakes, rivers, marshes, and streams. Reduce Your Energy Consumption · Sources of mercury in the United States include: 40% from mid-western power plants, 40% from New England power plants and incinerators, and 20% from global sources. · Most, if not all, mercury entering the Earth’s surface waters comes from the atmosphere. Particles generated by power plants are emitted into the atmosphere, and raindrops form around these particles. If you are considering an ANP, there are a number of questions that should be considered. If you can answer yes to any of the first three questions, a platform is probably not the right management tool for your lake. · Do loons produce chicks on your lake once every three years? · Do your loons successfully nest on a nearby lake? · Are there natural nesting locations on your lake that could be enhanced rather than place a platform? · Do you know the history of loon nesting attempts on your lake? If you answered yes to the last question your first step should be to document loon use. You need to determine if: 1. The loons are territorial (exhibiting defensive postures such as the penguin dance); non-breeding residents; or just occasional visitors. 2. If nesting has been attempted, data on nest locations, cause, and number of failures is important. Important: You will be the person responsible for maintaining the ANP for its lifetime. This includes placing it on your lake within a week of ice-out, removing it in late summer, and making necessary repairs at the end of the season. This is an important long-term responsibility. If the ANP is not properly maintained, it may cause the nest to fail. The need for loon platforms implies that humans have manipulated the habitat to a point where natural nesting is not possible. ANP’s are not always the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted May 20, 2016 Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 (edited) http://vet.tufts.edu/wildlife-medicine-program/research-2/loon-health-and-mortality/ Tufts was the University that did the findings for NH. Another paper... https://www.peregrinefund.org/subsites/conference-lead/PDF/0116%20Pokras.pdf Follow their references if you want more information. Edited May 20, 2016 by Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Young Posted May 20, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2016 (edited) http://vet.tufts.edu/wildlife-medicine-program/research-2/loon-health-and-mortality/ Tufts was the University that did the findings for NH. Another paper... https://www.peregrinefund.org/subsites/conference-lead/PDF/0116%20Pokras.pdf Follow their references if you want more information. The tufts study was done in the 80s. The usgs study and several others quoted in "waterbirds_sinkers" were done from 1995-1999 and they all came up with similar statistics. A little more research did provide some insight. The data came from an organization called the "Loon Preservation Committee". They are the driving force behind the NH lead ban. They are the organization quoted by the NH fish and game. This ban was origionally on sinkers less than 1/2 oz and jigs less than 1/2 oz or 1" long or shorter. Now the ban is on all lead weights, and jigs 1 ounce or less. They are also the ones collecting they dead bodies and supplying the data on loon mortality and lead poisoning. Talk about an opportunity to manipulate data - otherwise known as lying. I wonder what they do with all those bodies that don't fit their conclusions? Edited May 21, 2016 by Chuck Young Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apdriver Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 I am seeing more and more Loons in the south during winter. I don't think there are any valid reasons to think we should change our lifestyles because of a dwindling Loon population. In fact, from what I have experienced, we have a very robust Loon population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Young Posted May 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 The loon population in NH has tripled since 1975 according to the "Loon Preservation Committee". I believe that is because of a reduction in pollution and increase of habitat funded by fishing and hunting license fees. But the LPC says it is because of "The tireless efforts of the LPC" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 The loon population in NH has tripled since 1975 according to the "Loon Preservation Committee". I believe that is because of a reduction in pollution and increase of habitat funded by fishing and hunting license fees. But the LPC says it is because of "The tireless efforts of the LPC" It could be because so many loons have gotten into politics. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimpNoodle Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 The lakes I fish during the winter here in Texas are covered in Loons. It's not uncommon to have 20-30 around the boat at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 It could be because so many loons have gotten into politics. ...or politicians are loony ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Young Posted May 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 It could be because so many loons have gotten into politics. Too funny! And also too true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Young Posted May 21, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 (edited) Lest people think this is a NH issue - at least three other states have legislated bans based on this groups lobbying. They are also pushing for a federal ban. I don't pour (yet). But for those who do, how much will a ban of 1 ounce or less jigs and sinkers affect you? It may not stop there. Other wire form baits have been referenced as well. Heck - one study held that just as many waterbirds were adversely affected by non lead fishing items (hooks, line, plugs, non-lead jigs, etc) as lead items. Edited May 21, 2016 by Chuck Young Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSC Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 You got that right ... only thing about the political LOON is that yes he is a Super Con Artist or either we are super slow on catching up with them........... The Loon pop. is out of control what do that plan tg do .. more control over our use of lead? "Loony Tunes" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadman Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 To me it's as simple as this. I will continue to pour lead for all the states that don't have a ban. I currently pour non-lead jigs as well, so that is no the problem. The problem is lead is abot $2/lb from Roto- Metals. Non- lead if you mix your own is $20/lb. Also non lead jigs are about 1/4-1/3 less in weight than a lead jig, so you have to go up in profile to get the same weight. All of this is still not a problem. The problem comes in is if I have to charge you $5 or $6 per jig? Some guys currently do, so I guess if we want to continue to fish we just pay whatever it is and move on. The pricing of the jigs is going to determine if a lot of guys are going to still pour, and if they can sell their non-lead jigs. If the big suppliers sell a non-lead jig for $3.50 because they sell in volume and I cannot compete with that then I will only pour for myself, and not worry about the rest. This is my opinion, that is why I sign all of these bans for lead, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasilofchrisn Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 One thing we can and should do is vote for the politicians that support our hobby and our sport. Come November we can make a difference if we study these politicians and vote accordingly. Not to get into the 2nd amendment but people have long said they may not need to ban guns. But they will tax our ammunition to the point that shooting and/or hunting isn't practical. Could these lead bans be a start in pricing many fishermen out of fishing? That's the big picture and what worries me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted May 21, 2016 Report Share Posted May 21, 2016 One thing we can and should do is vote for the politicians that support our hobby and our sport. Come November we can make a difference if we study these politicians and vote accordingly. Not to get into the 2nd amendment but people have long said they may not need to ban guns. But they will tax our ammunition to the point that shooting and/or hunting isn't practical. Could these lead bans be a start in pricing many fishermen out of fishing? That's the big picture and what worries me. Politicians need to be watched closer than a monkey with a hand grenade. Ben 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
