AceArcher Posted June 7, 2016 Report Share Posted June 7, 2016 Hello everyone, First off, great forum and community here. I have learned so much from everyone here in regards to lure making, and I must say some of the creations that you guys have made are very inspiring.I know that this is probably a doozy of a first post, but i am really at a loss on how i can or should proceed with this. I have been making lures for personal use for about a year now, And although i still have much to learn i have come up with two new designs that have been very successful. One is similar in design to a relatively common type of lure (a lipless crankbait, along the lines of a rattletrap) but with a significantly different shape and obviously manufacturing process than what is on the market right now. (as best as i can determine thru internet searches no one is and/or was selling a lure of this type of shape and design) The other is of a very common style also, but it has the addition of something regularly used as an add on to a baits (like rattles or blades). Now again as far as i can tell thru internet searches no is and / or was ever selling a lure of this type with these modifications.Is there anyone on here that can provide me insight on to whether i should be looking to patent these design modifications? Is this a case of since i am just adding things that are normal parts of lure making into a total lure then they are not patentable? Same question with the lure that is a different shape but works in the same way that a rattletrap type lure works? I worry that if i start producing and marketing these and they catch on some big company will patent my design and cut me out of my own design.I appreciate anyone who may have gone thru this type of process and willing to provide some mentorship / direction. Thanks AceArcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted June 7, 2016 Report Share Posted June 7, 2016 I took a peek down that path with one of my designs.. What i found, just wasn't worth the trouble I think the biggest problem is protecting your patent.... Youd think once you pay for the patent, you're safe... But not really If it's not worded right to begin with, anyone can find a loop hole... And if someone out right took your idea and ran with it, youd still have to have the resources to go after them If you have the funds to pay an attorney to guide you thru it, id say go for it..... If not, then skip the patent and go for it anyway Just my $.02 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slimy Salamander Posted June 7, 2016 Report Share Posted June 7, 2016 (edited) JRammit is correct. Don't waste your time or money on patents, they protect nothing unless you have millions to spend on legal fees going after copycats and they are very likely to get away with it in the end anyway. Very few ideas are worth patenting and the only people that win is the lawyers. Edited June 7, 2016 by Slimy Salamander 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceArcher Posted June 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 So the consensus seems to be that attempting to patent is basically a waste of time and money.... That's a bit surprising i suppose, but actually simplifies things a good bit. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Don't let it discourage you.. If u have a dream, pursue it!... I plan to, someday But remember, business is just a game of numbers... Small investment = small return... Basically the only way to make money is if you already have money to begin with I have a family depending on me, so i cant afford any form of risk... But if you set realistic goals, i believe the dream can become reality For me... I dont ever expect to quit my job... But, if i could afford to work 4 or 5 days a week instead of 6 or 7.. Have a hobby that pays for itself and more time to spend on it...... That would be a dream come true! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Yeah I have to agree that it's pretty tuff to protect your creations. However if your really in with doing this I would start by creating a LLC. Then go after a copy right. Yep it's pretty discouraging but the people so far are right.....it's hard to protect. There was a person here about a year or more ago that had their company name pulled thru the mud by a person making inferior products similar to the company owner's. That was going to court but I never heard the results. I'm getting close to having to make a somewhat similar decision myself soon. It is starting a company or not and stay relatively local to regional. But heck, do what you think is right for you. Take care and good luck, Dale 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) One more quick comment and thought of mine. "At what point of making baits are done for fun or when does it become a job". People come by now or call and tell me what they want and I make the lures for them. It's still fun. That's what's going thru my mind. Dale Edited June 8, 2016 by DaleSW 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceArcher Posted June 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 There was a person here about a year or more ago that had their company name pulled thru the mud by a person making inferior products similar to the company owner's. That was going to court but I never heard the results. This would be the scenario which concerns me, I have no concerns with competing with others once i have my products out. But I am concerned about another company taking my ideas and then i have my ideas taken from me. Thanks for the additional feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent I Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 You shouldn't worry about somebody else patenting your idea and preventing you from using them. Once an invention has been shown in public or offered for sale, it is no longer patentable by anyone but the inventor, (unless the outside applicant can prove that he was working on the idea before the inventor was). Your best bet is to start making your product and getting it on the market. If it's a successful product, being first to market is pretty good protection. One thing you should protect is the name of your product, but that's a copyright, easy to get and easily defensible. Good luck. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 You shouldn't worry about somebody else patenting your idea and preventing you from using them. Once an invention has been shown in public or offered for sale, it is no longer patentable by anyone but the inventor, (unless the outside applicant can prove that he was working on the idea before the inventor was). Your best bet is to start making your product and getting it on the market. If it's a successful product, being first to market is pretty good protection. One thing you should protect is the name of your product, but that's a copyright, easy to get and easily defensible. Good luck. Kent, Does that mean, if you post a picture with date stamp, or just using that days newspaper as a backdrop, that will establish your claim? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent I Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Given the possibility of faking either one, I doubt they would be accepted as proof of priority. the gold standard for proof of priority is a hand written lab notebook , with each page dated and witnessed. An offer for sale ( a magazine ad with photo and description, for instance) instantly prevent anyone else from patenting any invention contained in the gadget in question unless they can prove that they were working on it before the inventor was. It's possible that an offer for sale on a web site or Facebook page would serve the same purpose. As I said, starting up manufacturing and sales is pretty good protection. I doubt that Bill Lewis' Rattletrap sales are much affected by Cordell's look-alike offering. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AceArcher Posted June 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Given the possibility of faking either one, I doubt they would be accepted as proof of priority. the gold standard for proof of priority is a hand written lab notebook , with each page dated and witnessed. An offer for sale ( a magazine ad with photo and description, for instance) instantly prevent anyone else from patenting any invention contained in the gadget in question unless they can prove that they were working on it before the inventor was. It's possible that an offer for sale on a web site or Facebook page would serve the same purpose. As I said, starting up manufacturing and sales is pretty good protection. I doubt that Bill Lewis' Rattletrap sales are much affected by Cordell's look-alike offering. That's good to hear, so a dated ebay listing should meet all the stipulations that are of importance (verified by a third party (ebay) concise, detailed, with dates etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) Id even venture to guess a pic in the TU gallery would apply..... Its hosted and dated by a third party.. And witnessed by hundreds of members I have one of my ongoing projects in there... Before i started it, i googled several key words (like you probably did) trying to find if it had been done before... I found nothing, but now when i do the same searches, i come up...... So i figure, if anyone else had the same idea now, they would do the same searches and see i beat them to it Just a thought Edited June 8, 2016 by JRammit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Young Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Great thread! Thanks to Ace Archer for bringing it up. And thanks to Dale, Mark, JRam, and Kent. The proof of priority concept makes a lot of sense. I was previously unaware of this. Few of us can afford a patent lawyer. It's good to know there is some protection out there for the little guy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent I Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Incidentally, the inventor also has one year after the first public introduction to apply for a US patent. After that, if no patent is applied for, it becomes public domain and can't be patented by anyone. I should also mention that there is a provisional patent that, if I recall, costs $20, and just requires a written description of the invention. If I'm not mistaken, it would allow you to mark your product "pat pending", which has no force of law, but might scare off the people who aren't too serious. Again, I think the hot ticket is to just get it on the market as quickly as you can. With most manufacturers, "time to market" is a very big deal, as delayed product introductions mean lost revenues and the opportunity for competitors to beat you to a new idea. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowFISH Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 I'd throw this out there.... there are companies (lawyers) that will defend patents for you on their dime - but will keep a LARGE percentage of any money won/obtained by violators of the patent - much like others who seek damages from injury/etc. I have NOT looked into it very deeply and don't know how they handle all of the details or if you have to grant them ownership of the patent... but might be something to consider if you feel you have a revolutionary idea worth patenting - but may struggle with defending it - which is almost anyone that isn't a large corporation. J. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 Very nice thread so far. I'm not from Missouri but I do follow their motto. I am going to look into this more, it's an interesting topic no matter what. I have heard that a copyright is less then fifty bucks. But a patent I'm not real sure about, even with me looking it up once I believe. Very nice and informative, Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 One way to prove the date of your concept is to gather all information (drawings, sketches, notes, etc.) and put a copy of them in an envelope and mail it to yourself. Once it goes through the mail it will be stamped with the date. Once you receive the envelope just put it away unopened in your files. Then if you have a company making claims that they started on the idea before you did there is proof positive as to when you started. Ben 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 (edited) That's what is known as a "Poor Man's Copyright" Ben. It may stand for that year as Kent stated. Copyrights have gone way up since I looked at them last, $114 US. Patents are $500/+ US. Dale Edited June 8, 2016 by DaleSW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent I Posted June 8, 2016 Report Share Posted June 8, 2016 The "put it in an envelope and mail it to yourself" will not establish priority, no matter how foolproof it seems. For those interested in a clear and understandable explanation of patent law, I recommend the book "Patent It Yourself". I forget the author's name, but it's a worthwhile read. Copyrights are indeed cheap, and for all practical purposes, can be established by just writing "copyright (the letter c in a circle will do) followed by your name. Aesthetic objects can be copyrighted, but not utilitarian objects. There is a class of patents called "design patents", that are meant to protect a product's physical appearance. They are less expensive and easier to get than a utility patent, but protect only the object's appearance, not its function, and as you might expect, are very easy to circumvent. Even minor changes to the appearance avoids infringement, and court cases involving design patents are usually long, messy, and expensive...think Apple IPhone vs Samsung. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NextgenMkr Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 This happens to be my first post and certainly not the one I intended to be my first but given the implications, time, money, risks, timing (deadlines) and options to formulate your application, well I could not stay silent and believe what follows will be of assistance. But before getting into this important topic, I would like to say that I feel right at home with the community and I highly appreciate the openness and generosity in discussing topics and how-to’s… not to mention the creativity of a lot of members… thank you for sharing and saving us time and frustration. I’ve read a few posts (so many topics of interests) since I joined a few days ago (did have time yet to finish my profile) and I am impressed by the details and devotion you guys bring to make this site very interesting, educational,professional, well-structured and internationally accessible. Kudo! I’m from Canada (hey!) where everything is more expensive and where we also have a Patent Office, the Canadian Intellectual Property Office (CIPO). I am far from pretending to know everything but reading the thread there is one thing that resounds sadly true is that it is questionable to proceed with a patent in the fishing industry. Reason being is the limited degree of improvement someone could do and get a patent from YOUR idea after it I is made public. That said a formal application gives you time, in Canada its 18 months and I believe it is the same in the US and actually in every country that signed The International Patent Treaty (PCT). Patent is expensive and attorneys well I don’t know about the States but in Canada they charge on average $400 per hour and a ‘’simple invention’ ’like lures could run up to $10K and take up to five years. It is a very demanding and is a tedious process but before you even think of preparing an application… you shall do research on the Patent Office’s website of each country that you’re planning to obtain patent rights. This is easily a two months activity. Researching the net only gives you an idea if it is commercially available, a step perhaps but of no significance other than telling you to pursue your objective. One word of caution, if you go public before having a ‘’patent pending number’’, you will not be able to patent your idea anywhere in the world. About Intellectual Property, if you are seriously considering patenting your invention you must follow the strict procedures of the US Patent & Trademark Office (USPTO). There are options like the provisional approach which is cheaper and allows you to test the market before dishing a lot of cash. You must also search WIPO’s website because you have to be certain that your idea was not already someone else’s. I wish you the best of luck and in no way am I trying to burst your bubble but rather save you disappointment, time and hard earned $$$. Cheers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted June 10, 2016 Report Share Posted June 10, 2016 First of all welcome to TU. That is about what I got out of the time that I spent researching. The design copyright seemed to be more to the main stream of most people's capabilities. However this seems like a false image when just a slight change in the design can make your dream go up in smoke. For me I figure to just make some different crank designs and see what happens locally. If nothing else it will pay for my expenses of my habit that I got and my enjoyment (making lures). Got one job, and at this point in my life I don't need a second. If I did make a second job for myself, I wouldn't have any time to fish. Just my old selfish opinion. Later, Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slimy Salamander Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 (edited) I have heard that a copyright is less then fifty bucks. But a patent I'm not real sure about, even with me looking it up once I believe. Copyrights have gone way up since I looked at them last, $114 US. Lol, that's a scam. A copyright is FREE and automatic if it has the words copyright and your name on it. Edited June 11, 2016 by Slimy Salamander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slimy Salamander Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 Watch this and listen to the guy, he knows what he is talking about: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 (edited) @ Slimy Number one, If you looked up the US. Gov site you will see that I was originally correct it's $35 by digital not $114, $85 by paper. So sorry, second thing I said basically is the same thing that this Australian (assuming, he is) is talking about if you would read the first paragraph of my last post. Writing, mailing it to yourself...just read up on it. It really doesn't matter as I have already stated. Have a great day, Dale Edited June 11, 2016 by DaleSW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
