Flat Crank Wobble

[mark poulson]

In my never ending quest to copy, I made some Barry Sterud balsa crank knock offs out of PVC trimboard.

The first ones I made I left 3/4" thick, and tapered from the belly hook area forward to the nose, and back to the tail.

They swim with a hard X, and no wobble.

Barry let me compare my baits to his, and his baits are thinner, so I tried the same bait shape in 1/2" PVC, with the bills narrowed accordingly.

The new baits also X, but they wobble dramatically, looking like they are almost going to roll as they are retrieved, but still run true.

My experience with crank bait building has always been that thicker, more rounded baits will wobble more, but it seems to be the exact opposite in this case.

Any ideas why this might be happening?

Edited July 12, 2016 by mark poulson

[Don-Art]

The only thing that comes to mind is that the length on the taper maybe slightly longer on the thicker lure. I am presuming that your ballast weight was also scaled along with the thickness change. It also makes me wonder if a 5/8" thickness might be the magic number.

Don

[SW Lures]

I'm starting to understand/maybe that there is a width, length and height ratio that allows this. I saw it in the larger baits and realized I have seen it in the much smaller baits. The lip, ballast, shape also play a part in this I believe.

I have minnow shape that does this, it's a 1/2" thick X 5/8" height X 2 1/2" long. It real goes crazy, but slows down in its action if it's cranked faster/ripped. This could be a interesting thread, I will be following for sure. I just notice this so I truly don't understand this totally.

Dale

[mark poulson]

Since the flat sided baits are thinner, I did have to use less ballast.  But not much less.  And the ballast is low, up from the belly.

I put some clear nail polish with mylar bits onto the baits, and they flash a lot as the wobble.  Since the water here is off colored, and it's usually windy, I think that will help them to be attractive as reaction baits.

But I am puzzled as to why they wobble, when their fatter cousins, which are exactly the same size and profile, but thicker, don't.

[Vodkaman]

Very interesting observation. I cannot explain it, yet.

 

Dave

[hazmail]

Mark, I'm feeling for you here-------I'm thinking the ratio between the thin and wide bait to the SAME bib width -- the thinner bait has marginally more bib width on either side compared to it's body width, also less buoyancy (resistance) on these comparatively narrower sides. ???? .Which in my old mind may cause a roll..

I'm making (trying to) a new shape at the moment and am having similar problems, although in my case I think it's too much wood on the bottom, I have plenty of ''X'' and a wild roll even with some ballast, no matter where I put it  , it all sucks your brain mate.

Pete

[BobP]

I think Pete is onto something regarding how the lip will act on the body of a narrow flat body versus a fatter rounder body. I Think body roll on a narrow flat body is also easier to see and to feel through the rod tip versus the more unimpeded roll you get with a fat body. Personally, I favor fishing flat sided narrow body cranks because their "thump" is usually sharper and more pronounced than fat cranks. And they are not just a "springtime" bait for me - I fish them year round.

[SW Lures]

I'm with Bob, the majority of my baits have flat sides at different degrees.

I designed a bait with a higher profile that rolled it's shoulders back and forth with some slow waggle. I wanted more waggle so I lowered the profile height and the waggle was more pronounced. The shoulder roll was less. Again, this is a bait with flat sides. A small amount compared to body size. I referrered to my ratio theory in a recent post about lip design.

Even with this knowledge I'm not sure. I will not say it's a certain cause unless I know for sure. Y'all ones that has been doing this for years can figure it out but I gave you some "food for thought". Will be reading! This could give me something that I'm looking for.

Have a great day,

Dale

p.s., one other thing the bait is made from poplar.

Edited July 13, 2016 by DaleSW

[JRammit]

something in Pete's reply... less material/less buoyancy

ballast only works because of the buoyancy pulling against it.... your thinner body pulls less against the weight of your ballast, offering less resistance to the roll

maybe???

[BobP]

When all is said and done, I believe "rules" of crankbait behavior are better thought of as tendecies than actual rules. I have made design alterations dozens of times to find that what I expected did not happen exactly as dictated by a "rule". This isn't to say we shouldn't put thought into the design process. But I think crankbaits work in a very dynamic environment with lots of different forces working in complex ways to produce their performance, and it can be devilishly hard to take one aspect out of the mix, change it, and then expect a specific result. Kudos to those who are willing to go through the scientifically sound process of prototype making/testing (Vodkaman?)but it isn't for the impatient majority or anyone who doesn't value hard headed detail work and long hours at the bench and the testing tank.

[SW Lures]

To just add to Bob's statement, I have not found anything by mathematics. It's looking at the wood and wondering if my idea will work. From my lil old walnut I put it to hands and eye to create a design. Then its test, testing and testing more.

Once I have a standard/prototype I try to produce it over and over again. So far so good, but ballast changes at times. That's why I stop shy of the so call ballast amount and test. Then I add or not what looks right by looking at the bait in a tank. Once in awhile I miss, so it's no perfect way for me. A bait that I wanted to float just became a sinker.

As Bob explained to me in another thread changing the lip from one thickness can change the weight, it made logical since so I have to test again. However understanding and being able to picture how water moves around a bait does help me (Vodkaman). A tank with food coloring can tell you a lot.

It does take a lot of effort with trial and error for me. I do like everyone giving their two cent as Ben says. People's opinion makes a thread interesting to me.

It tis a lot of work/fun, whew. I just wish that I had more time to work on the baits. I'm still going to keep this thread in mind, who knows I may see something that adds up.

Take care,

Dale

Edited July 13, 2016 by DaleSW

[Vodkaman]

I think Pete has nailed it with the lip width to body width.

 

I wish I had my tank setup as this is something that I would definitely experiment with.

 

Dave

[mark poulson]

Thanks guys for all the replies.

My project for today is to try and solve this.

Since the two cranks I made wobble so much, they will become my first test subjects.

I'll report back what I find.

[mark poulson]

Well, I fingered it out.  As usual, operator error. 

In my zeal to have a nice, deep curve in my tail, I wound up with the part of the ballast that was behind the belly hanger above the center line of the bait.

I should have known better, because I raise some of the ballast in my square billed cranks above the center line on purpose, to make them hunt because they are a little unstable.  But, I was in such a hurry to try and copy Barry Sterud's balsa crank that I completely missed this goof.

My solution was twofold.

I wound up shortening the tail and raising the tail hanger about 1/4" and that helped, because it raised the center line of the bait. 

Then I removed the 3 grams of ballast behind the 3 gram belly hanger, and placed it forward of the belly hanger.

Problem solved.

This was with the 1/2" thick cranks.  The thinner baits don't seem to have enough buoyant material to be able to overcome ballast that high above the center line.  They are so sensitive!  Hahaha

The 3/4" thick cranks have more buoyancy, so I was able to put a 1 gram lead ball rattle directly above the belly hanger, and above the center line, along with 3 grams in front of the 3 gram belly hanger, and those cranks X really hard, but don't wobble.

I'll post some pictures in the Hard Baits Gallery tomorrow.  

Right now, I'm waiting for the inside temp., 88 down from 90, to match the outside temp which is "only" 80, so I can take a shower and crash.

Whoever invented AC forgot to invent free electricity. 

 

Here's a link to one of the two pictures I posted in the Hard Baits Gallery:

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/gallery/image/15932-barry11/

It's too hot to just do nothing!

Edited July 15, 2016 by mark poulson

[barrybait]

Hey Mark!  I tested my coffin flat side yesterday out west.  My first and last bite on it was a 4 pounder.  I went down to lip her and when I grabbed the line I watched her swim off with my bait.  Dang!  My snap was open.  I inspected the snap and it looked perfect. A good wire snap with no distortion and fit up and locking bend looked great.  I threw it away.  I had a warning...after our tournament, showing the club the bait on my deck, Greg S. pointed out then that the snap was open.  Other consideration is that I observed that she had inhaled the bait and it was sideways inside the front part of her mouth holding it open it looked like so maybe the way it got wedged in there may have squeezed the snap to get it open.  I don't know how she is going to get it out but I wish her luck.  I fished and checked the area for 45 minutes in case she came to the top but no such luck for her or me.  Anyway if you're fishing Big Break, keep an eye out for my bait.  It is the middle of the 3 baits I posted and it's out there in 'finders keepers' mode.

 

Glad you solved your rolling issue.  I only have a weight on mine on the belly hook hangar up thru the belly weight in thru wired mode.  I need to see your new bait swim too.  If you have the good Xing going, I am confident it will work and if you can do it with more weight it will be much better for casting around in this delta with the wind blowing all the time.  I will be out Saturday and will probably see you at Cooch's Pro-Teen event registration since I think we are both boating for a kid on Sunday.  Crankbait bite still on fire!

[mark poulson]

Barry,

That sucks!  I hope you have notes, so making a replacement isn't too hard.

I remember Greg telling you the snap was open.

I use a heavier snap from LPO  on my chatter baits, and on my lure testing rod, because I've had them open up in the past, too.  These are harder to open, with a little heavier wire.

I'll bring some to you on Sunday.

I remember the picture you sent me of your open bait, showing the through wire harness and the lead on the belly hanger shaft.

Balsa is definitely more lively!

Whoever finds your bait will have found a pot of gold!

[SW Lures]

Mustad makes a snap swivel. Well not really a snap, you roll the tow eye thru the "retainer swivel". I haven't used a snap swivel in years until some one was chatting about them here on a thread.

I went out and got a pack of them to try. I really like them. If one of these allows a fish to get away. I don't want it in the boat anyways or it won't fit. I'm sure other manufacturers are making these. I highly recommend them. If you get the bait on the swivel and get the bait straight with the line, it ain't coming off.

Dale

[barrybait]

Dale,   We are just using snaps, not snap swivels.  I am preferring wire snaps, they have low weight and do not impede the action of the lure.  If I don't use a snap, I use a split ring and tie my line direct to that.  That is probably the best but I use a snap for convenience for changing lures to find the right depth and color they want.  Tying direct to the lure is not good.  The line and knot impede the action of the lure and in many cases the lure will not even run true.  Try this with a speed trap.  I will check out the Mustad swivel you mention thou and see how it looks. 

 

Mark brought some LPO wire snaps for me to try.  He felt my pain.  Thanks Mark.

 

Changing Baits.  The deepest balsa bait I made goes about 5-6 ft.  I start with this one almost always and if it comes thru Most of the time, I stick with it.  If I can't get it thru the weeds Most of the time, I go to my next shallow bait, 4-5 ft, until I wind up with my shallow crank, 8-24 inches.  Fishing mostly the same stuff but it varies with the weeds and  tidal influence in the CA Delta.

 

Barry