bib shapes

[gliders]

Hey guys,I've been messing about with some different bib shapes on a particular lure,pretty much shad shape,cedar 6inch,shallow runner. Seeing what i can get from it with different shapes. Assuming overall surface area of 2 in pic below is equal, what would you expect the difference in action if any  , to be ? 

[BobP]

I've heard that a leaf shaped lip on a deep diver with its narrower waist near the bait body makes for a bait that's easier to pull through the water.  If true, the downside of that might be that a bait that is easier to pull also makes less turbulence as it swims.  In my limited experience with leaf shaped lures, they seemed to be harder to tune than normal.  That's just an impression I have from the few commercial lures with this lip shape I have fished.

considering both lips, a 2" long lip on a shallow bait seems very long to me, if that is the length that will be exposed after mounting.  If it's too long, the bait may spin.

Just my impressions.  On-the-water results are the only real arbiter of design.

[gliders]

Interesting stuff bob p,  numbers on lures just example 1 and 2. Total length only about 1 and 1/4 inch, total exposed-about 3 quarter inch..  I use these on shallow trolling lures....I've already tested them.  I wondered if my theory of what i wanted to achieve with shape 2, as opposed to shape 1 seemed logical to others...It behaved as i hoped it would . Would like opinions of some of you guy's so as to affirm or not,what effect the change in action from1 to 2 would be ,if any...The other things that concerned me was as you mentioned   i.e would number 2 be less forgiving in terms of bib build quality affecting action ,and also using method I use to make bibs would it be to tricky to produce.  Regarding making them ,like many i cut on bandsaw then shape on disc sander. . Surprisingly actually not as difficult as imagined.  Thanks again bob p.

Edited December 7, 2016 by gliders

[gliders]

Just to add ,not trying to test anyone, just like to know myself if theory supported  practical test. ...glider.

[gliders]

In case of misunderstanding, I will explain the aim i had with bib 2 over bib 1 which is my normal shape on this particular lure . Without changing ballast or anything else ,i wanted to see if i could achieve enough difference with bib shape alone  to produce a slightly different action for a specific  application. What i wanted was a bit less stability and a bit more roll ,and a slightly tighter wiggle than example 1 ,  shape 2 was what i thought would achieve this. My question is, should it have ?

[JRammit]

If it worked, it worked.... It's fun to guess and theorize, but testing is the end answer

Seems to me lip #2 should do what you're asking.... As the top of the lip is slimmer, I'd imagine water to take the path of least resistance and shed around the thinner point and impart most of the action at the nose of the bait rather than the end of the lip.... In theory, you create a shorter lip without sacrificing the depth given by the original size

[BobP]

On a flat sided trolling bait I have been making for many years, narrowing the lip gives it more roll, which I like in moderation.

[SW Lures]

When I started desgning a particular bait for trolling. It is shape similar to a shad and 3.25" long and slab shape. I put a  angled tombstone lip at 2" from the nose of the bait. It spung like crazy as Bob stated. I took off 3/8", took away the angle and rounded the front edge. The bait stop spining and had a aggressive wiggle.

Being new to making lures I thought the length and width would get the depth I wanted. This is not true after designing more then 18 baits and well above a hundred baits, more towards two hundered.

I'm not as experience as most here, but have learnt what makes a bait tick. There is so many things that gets a hard bait to do what you want. 

Shape of bait (including length, side shape, height, symmetry, etc), dive angle (which includes ballast and location of it), tow eye location, lip/bib location and angle with length-width, drag from displacement of water, speed of retreive or trolling. And don't forget if your on a flowing water rather then a tidal water or lake, is are you retrieving against or with the flow of the water.

Oh heck I'm tired from typing. You get the idea. You'll get a little unstable wiggle with 2, 1 will give stability with less action. But I'm saying this without seeing the bait like I do when I'm shaping mine.

[gliders]

Thanks guy's ,helpful stuff. I like to know a design worked by design and not good luck or for a different reason with same result . Encouraged that i seem to have done so by design !   Thanks all.....glider

[Vodkaman]

I would expect a wider action with No1 and a narrow, wiggle from No2.

Dave

 

[mark poulson]

Man, I love your test tank  videos.  Have you been able to set one up where you're living now?

 

[gliders]

Thanks v.m .  I've watched your vid a while back, but never really looked closely enough. Mainly due to watching on tablet. Had a closer look and satisfied i was  on right track with the 2 shapes, so thats good to know. Going to watch again on big screen and slow motion . Like you predicted,  example  1 wider wobble,example 2 tighter wiggle but also a bit more roll . Thats what i was aiming for...cheers glider.

[Vodkaman]

Gliders - happy you found the vid useful. This is one of my favourites, video is a powerful tool in lure design.

Mark - The abode that I am in now, I took for the large workshop. But I soon realized that I had made a mistake. The traffic noise is horrendous and causing me sleep problems. I know that I am not going to stay here once my rent period is up, and so I have been reluctant to set up my shop again. What is worse is that I paid 2-years in advance. Middle of 2017 I will be moving into a new place, so hoping to start again then.

I have several lure projects that need developing, I want to build a new duplicator machine and other tools. I am designing a lot with molding in mind, so I want to purchase a 3D printer. I also have a new bicycle seat that needs prototyping, again designed for molding techniques. If successful it could develop into a small business, but too early to make those plans.

I will of course be building a new test tank, even bigger and possibly deeper than before, with facilities for high quality GoPro video. I will make more detailed plans closer to the time.

Dave

[SW Lures]

Dave I don't think you need this but if you want a pic of my duplicator I'll sent it in a pm. I don't usually post many pics because photo bucket, me and the posting site just get along. But if you do I'll show you. Works pretty well. Made from scrape parts and wood. Cost me 20 bucks and that mainly was  for the legs and frame, I had everything or found what I wanted. There are some detail cuts and drill locations and how I got around something's of using  wood.

[Vodkaman]

Dale - I would love to receive pics of your dup M/C, and anyone else for that matter. My email is folicallychalled@aol.co.uk

I will be designing from scratch and do not have a particular design in mind at this moment. I may decide to improve on my last design, which was a 'seesaw' swinging arm design. It was quite good, but there was room for improvement.

I would like to design and build  an NC dup m/c, to cut masters straight from a computer file, but I don't have the necessary knowledge. I believe such a machine could produce bodies in seconds, in 1/5th of the time of a traditional manual dup m/c.

Dave

[ravenlures]

DAVE

First super great video. It seems to me that there was not that much difference with the different lips, there was some. The video from the top was the best view. Now I am not into swim baits but I think that  using the right lip or changing ( type of lip) on them will have the most effect on a swim bait rather than a straight bait.  Just my two cents.  Still great information.

 I just have to build a test tank, I do have one the Menominee River in Northeast Wisconsin, But one in my basement would be super since the river is getting ready to freeze. I have been thinking of making a tank that I can remove the top which would double as a work bench, but that means I would have to keep the top  clean which is hard for me.

Wayne

[mark poulson]

3 hours ago, Vodkaman said:

Dale - I would love to receive pics of your dup M/C, and anyone else for that matter. My email is folicallychalled@aol.co.uk

I will be designing from scratch and do not have a particular design in mind at this moment. I may decide to improve on my last design, which was a 'seesaw' swinging arm design. It was quite good, but there was room for improvement.

I would like to design and build  an NC dup m/c, to cut masters straight from a computer file, but I don't have the necessary knowledge. I believe such a machine could produce bodies in seconds, in 1/5th of the time of a traditional manual dup m/c.

Dave

 

Dave,

I just saw this in an email.  I don't know if it's something you'd be interested in.

 

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0095p?FVSEARCH=3d+printer

[Vodkaman]

Thanks Mark - the  print area is too small for the projects that I have lined up. I need to find a supplier locally, or at least in Indonesia, for spares and service. Importing literally doubles or triples the cost of any item.

I don't use the printer to make parts, I use it to print master molds. From this I make a silicone or RTV mold and then cast the parts.

Dave

[SW Lures]

I'll get some pic's today with some close ups and get it to you Dave. I'm a type that makes things work with what's at hand. You'll see what I mean. The duplicator does great but when the wood is in the clamps, some wood is wasted. I have just gotten to a point of likeing to shape by hand??? Just like it. While doing it buddy I'll give you a tour. I also like being a "McGyver" type. 

Edited December 10, 2016 by DaleSW
Spelling

[Vodkaman]

Looking forward to it mate.

My dup m/c will be made using readily available materials, predominantly wood and ply. There will be no special machined parts, every part of the machine will be easily purchased or manufactured in an average workshop.

Apologies to Gliders, we have drifted from the subject. I suggest any more off topic discussion should be moved to the messenger (pm).

Dave

Edited December 10, 2016 by Vodkaman

[gliders]

Guy's, I like making tools also, all my round section lures made using home built laithe. Have looked at some past t,u copy machine posts. I am trying to look away and promise myself i dont need one ,or more accurately I absolutely haven't got time required to build one ! To put my mind at rest and save untold grief i have a couple of what i realise are vague questions - realistically what sort of quality do you expect from a basic home built  duplicator , what time scale per lure ?. I realise! obviously there are tons of variables regarding design,cost,etc.etc.  Just want a rough idea as to what could be achieved  v cost and time .I  Genuinely want to persuade myself  i shouldn't go down this road !

[BobP]

I think there are two competing impulses about copy machines.  There are guys who want to engineer one just to tinker with the machinery and get it working.  And there are guys who need to acquire or build one to increase the volume and/or repeatability of the lures they build for commercial purposes.  

[gliders]

Got you bob p, though i do like building things,it would be a means to an end ,and not a project i could take on at the moment. For a couple of certain lures i make, I have thought about options for reproducing easier/ quicker than carving without losing quality. This as i say is not for now ,and i am also looking at possibly casting the same 2 models from urethane in future. Just wondered if i should go one way or other if i decide take any further in future, thanks....glider

[Vodkaman]

Gliders - first off, I am glad you're OK with the diversion.

BobP - I am the 'tinkerer type'. I had no real need for a dup m/c, but it was great for prototyping a new lure.

I could produce 50 identical bodies in a couple of hours, leaving me free to try many lip and ballast variations without having to butcher and make do with a couple of carvings. It was particularly useful when I was experimenting with large swim-baits, as those bad boys took an age to carve manually. Another advantage is that the consistency of the body forms allows me to make molded jigs to solve lip slot problems and even drilling eye and ballast holes. Finally, if you screw up, no need to try and botch a repair, just grab another body out of the bag.

Yes, designing and building a dup m/c is a lot of planning and work, but I think it is well worth the effort and have no problems about doing it again.

I started with a router cutter, but moved to a circular saw cutter; cheaper to replace and less waste. But, wood waste is really a non-issue unless you are cutting many thousands.

surface finish is a slight issue, especially using the circular saw. You get ridges depending on how many cuts per inch you set your m/c up for. I found that 20 seconds on a flap-wheel was enough to knock the ridges down enough, and let the sealing and paint process solve the rest. I call myself a lure designer and not a fisherman, so the ridges were not an issue for me, no one else was ever going to see the bodies. I do fish occasionally, but not often.

The main limitation of a dup m/c is bounce. If you set the turning speed too high then the profile tracer will bounce. If you add springs or weight to counter the bounce, then your master doesn't last long, as ridges cut into the master. I found that around 60 rpm was about the limit. I used a standard threaded rod with 25 threads per inch. So for a 3" body, the cutting time was 75 seconds plus reset, loading and unloading.

Dave

Edited December 10, 2016 by Vodkaman

[gliders]

Hey dave v man, i got some good advice regarding predicted action of big cedar trolling prototype i was building a while back from you. I know your not that interested in aesthetics but more the technical aspects of lure building. However out of respect i have posted pic in gallery (monster holo troller) so you can see what end result was, has accounted for some good fish !